1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

World peak of oil production

Discussion in '2007 Archive' started by ByGracethroughFaith, Aug 15, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oil depletion

    OK, here it is, I started out with a writing of a book mentality, and had to trim it back to fit into a post. It is long, but I hope it is worthwhile, if not I am sure someone will let me know :)

    Oil Depletion in the Bible

    We start with the word ‘chariot’ as used throughout the Old Testament which refers either to ‘a seat in a vehicle’, ‘a vehicle’ or ‘a rider’ of some sort. Then we move on to Nahum 2:3-4 which is about the best description possible of the modern automobile, by someone who had never actually seen one.

    Nah 2:3-4 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet:the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken. 4 The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

    From Daniel we know that there will be a great increase in transportation towards the time of the end.

    Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro , and knowledge shall be increased.

    Living in that time with the vantage of hindsight we know that this was facilitated by crude oil in its various forms, of which the Bible says was provided by the Lord. Oil is not a ‘fossil fuel’ it was placed exactly where it is by God at creation to bring about His purposes.

    Hos 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil , and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.

    Oil is referenced as an energy source for creating light several times, below are just a few.

    Ex 39:37 The pure candlestick, with the lamps thereof, even with the lamps to be set in order, and all the vessels thereof, and the oil for light,

    Ex 27:20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always.

    The idea that there was oil contained in rock (underground reservoirs of crude oil are porous rock) was revealed back in the time of Job, so it is not a new concept, what is new are some the ways in which we have put it to use.

    Job 29:5-6 When the Almighty was yet with me, when my children were about me; 6 When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil ;

    One of the most interesting purposes is that the Lord planted the descendents of Ishmael over a very large portion of oil because of Abraham’s request.

    Gen 17:18-20 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael , I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

    Side note: God nearly always used Babylon as the tool for inflicting judgment on unrepentant Israel. I think one of the most fascinating portions of scripture regarding the descendents of Ishmael is Hab 1:5-2:3 where God declares He will use them for the same purpose in the last days, except this time it will be on the unrepentant gospel bearing nations (UGBN). For reference please see what happens to Israel in Deut 28:49-57 as the prototype of what will happen to the UGBN.

    Since it is the Lord who provides the oil, it is Him alone who determines how much is available, and there is biblical precedent both for Him letting it flow, and for Him restricting it.

    Prov 21:20 There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up.

    Hag 1:11 And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil , and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands.

    Joel 1:10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

    My understanding based on current production numbers, is that we are soon to enter the period of God restricting the flow of oil to the UGBN as detailed below.

    Mic 5:10-15 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots: 11 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds: 12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers: 13 Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands. 14 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities. 15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

    The horses in verse 10 are the energy source for the chariots, and will be cut off.

    To determine the time and place for this we back up to verse 8 to see that it is when ‘the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people’. This has not been fulfilled in any time up to and including 70AD where Israel was still gathered together. This is not to be fulfilled during the time known as Jacob’s trouble when all the descendents of Jacob are gathered together again in Israel. This is not even meant to be a judgment of Israel, as stated in verse 15 it is to be ‘vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard’. The Lord is speaking favorably unto the remnant of Jacob until the end of verse 9, from that point on the speaking turns from favorable to unfavorable because the Lord is speaking to a different people. I believe it is to be applied to the UGBN; this will require some explanation so I must digress a moment or two.

    When Christ came the first time the visible Jewish church was in total apostasy, even crucifying the Lord of Glory, when He returns the second time the visible Gentile church will be in a similar condition. There will be a few saved here and there, but the great mass of visible Christendom will be entirely corrupted from the truth, so much so that during the Great Tribulation most of those left behind will receive the mark of the beast, being deceived into thinking they are being sealed of God (compare Rev 7:3 and Rev 13:16). The doubters among you at this point may guffaw, but it is recorded that the punishment of those who merely played church will be much greater than that experienced by Israel. The judgment that will fall on the UGBN will be much more severe than that which fell on Jerusalem in 70 AD; in fact Jerusalem will look like a picnic compared to what happens to the UGBN.

    Heb 10:28-29 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Abundant supply of a cheap energy source is the very foundation of the way of life in the UGBN. It has allowed us to live where we want, work where we want, and specialize into jobs that don’t require producing our own food and shelter. We are now completely dependent on a constant supply of energy since the just-in-time concept of supply has worked its way through the entire system. Someone may say surely there will be another form of energy or something to fill in the gap, I will say there is always a minute possibility, but based on the current information available, the probability is extremely low.

    The effects of oil depletion on the UGBN along with the rest of the world are scattered throughout the book of Revelation along with the books of the prophets, where more is written about Christ’s second coming than His first. When you read the Bible, look for the phrase ‘the day of the Lord’, most often it refers to the time between the rapture of the saints and the end of the millennial reign of Christ. Some of what you see will be pleasant which refers to what happens during the millennial reign, and some will be unpleasant which refers to the period known as the Great Tribulation. From the mention oil’s importance gets in Rev 6:6 at the beginning of the tribulation, as well as its mention of it’s unavailability in Rev 18:10-14 towards the end of the tribulation, oil or scarcity thereof, will be a major contributing factor to the events that precede the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    BGTF
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,005
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    BGTF,

    Since I am not a premillennalist your argument will get nowhere with me. A nice try, though. :)
     
  3. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh well, at least I have my book started :)


    BGTF
     
  4. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    August 2007 Oil update

    From here
    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2828

    There is tons of good detailed info in this article. Check out the first chart for sure.


    BGTF
     
  5. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, now I'm very intrigued. I want to hear more. BGTF, I admire your countenance in dealing with Kens overwhelming knowledge, and fine credentials. But Ken hasn't passed his rock throwing phase yet.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,005
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just throwing back the ones that you right-wingers throw at me.

    Back on topic, I am preparing my response to this peak oil nonsense and I hope to have it typed up this weekend. It will be rather lengthy.
     
  7. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent......I'd like some real information, from both sides.
     
  8. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is not an issue between Republicrats or Demoblicans, it will affect all. There are people from the far left who understand this as well as people from the far right. Their methods of accepting it and dealing with it do tend to be much different though.

    This guy is considered right wing and has been an advisor to the Whitehouse in both Republican and Democrat administrations. Consider him about DEFCON 3.

    http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches


    I normally don't send these ones out, but just for Ken, the sites below are all considered left wing, and are DEFCON 5+. Unfortunately, because they are having a hard time dealing with this without a Saviour, the language is often not pristine. Take the data to formulate your own conclusions.

    http://www.dieoff.org/

    This guy has written a good article on the entire issue in the first link which will probably debunk most of Ken's arguments. He also collects news articles Mon-Fri from news outlets that deal with the topic.

    http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html
    http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/BreakingNews.html


    BGTF
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,005
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wouldn't count on it. I am not planning on grooving any 80 mph fastballs down the middle of the plate. :)
     
  10. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Finally, the weeked has arrived. I am looking forward to your article Ken :)


    BGTF
     
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,005
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is it is. Enjoy. :)



    Is our planet running out of oil? Well, is it? The fact is that no one knows how much oil can be recovered from known reservoirs nor does anyone know how many new reservoirs will be discovered in the coming decades. Also, since the beginning of the oil age analysts have had a bad habit of underestimating production and overestimating consumption.

    Some attempt to use the model developed by Marion Hubbert in the 1950s that claims that oil production is represented by a bell curve. How accurate has this proven to be? Not very – except for one instance. His model did well in predicting a seven year range for peak oil production in the lower 48 states of 1965 – 1972, with the actual date being 1970. The advantage that the Hubbert model enjoyed was that the United States is the most intensively explored area in the world. This model does not enjoy the same advantage with the rest of the world nor can it anticipate the impact of political decisions, changes in consumption patterns, prices, and technological changes. In the early 1970s Hubbert predicted that peak world oil production would occur in the mid-1980s and that by 2000 only 34 million barrels per day of oil would be produced. The actual production number for 2000 was 75 million barrels per day.

    Even the idea of the organic origin of oil is not immune from challenge. The Abyssal Abiogenic(or Abiotic) Theory states that oil could be made without the help of living organisms buried deep in the earth. And, indeed, oil has been found in non-sedimentary rock. Also, methane has been found in many parts of the universe, including in our own solar system, where there is no trace of life currently or in the past. A team led by Nobel laureate Dudley Herschbach of HarvardUniversity in 2004 produced evidence of the possibility that the reaction of water and rock can result in hydrocarbons.

    Technology is improving the percentage of recovery of oil from existing reservoirs. As advanced technologies are applied more widely more oil will be recovered. In the United States the recovery rate is 50 percent compared to some Persian Gulf countries and Russia where the rate is only 20 percent.

    Also, over time the estimates of how much oil a reservoir may hold have been proven to be inaccurate. For example, The Kern River field in California was thought to have only 54 million barrels of reserves remaining in 1942 yet during the next 44 years it produced 736 million barrels with a 1986 estimate of remaining reserves of 970 million barrels.

    To put this all in perspective, today’s proven reserves – those that there is a reasonable certainty that they can be recovered using current technology – suggest that their life span is 38 years. This does not count probable reserves or possible reserves, nor does it take into account future finds, improvements in technology, changes in consumption patterns, etc. Also, a single percentage point increase in the recoverability factor results in additional reserves added to the books that equal up to 2 years of global consumption.

    The price collapses of 1986 and 1998 produced a risk adverse atmosphere within the oil industry. Therefore, exploration had not been as robust as it would have been if oil prices had remained in the $40 per barrel range during the last half other 1980s and throughout the 1990s until the recent increase in prices in the first half of the 2000s. The Persian Gulf has been an area of long time production but of relatively little exploration. Only 2000 exploratory wells have ever been drilled in the Persian Gulf region compared to more than 1 million in the United States. Let’s consider Iraq. Only 2300 exploration and production wells have been drilled in Iraq compared to about 1 million in Texas alone. This lack of exploration means that it is realistic to believe that there is much more oil to be found in Iraq. Consider also Russia. Russia’s oil industry is way behind the technologically advanced areas of the United States and the North Sea. Russian recovery rates are only 40 percent of those in these two areas. An improvement in the technology used by the Russian oil industry would yield dramatic increases in the flow of oil from that area of the world.

    Concerns about spare capacity are causing some people to believe that oil reserves will experience an imminent decline. But these people are failing to take into account that as a result of the price collapses of 1986 and 1998 that a large oil producer such as OPEC has restricted new production to utilize just-in-time inventories. The higher oil prices of the past few years are starting to change this and worldwide daily oil production is now projected to rise by 15 million barrels per day to 101 million barrels per day by 2010. Some people might be interested to know that OPEC supplies less than 40 percent of world production today compared to 60 percent in the 1970s.

    Turning to the consumption side, planned increases in refineries will help. For instance, India is planning to expand an existing refinery to bring its capacity to 1.2 million barrels per day. Worldwide capacity is expected to increase by 4 million barrels per day by 2010 based on additional capacity at existing refineries. This does not include the building boom of new refineries in Asia.

    The demand for oil has grown annually by only 1.6 percent during the past 25 years compared to a 6.5 percent annual growth rate during the 20th century up to 1974 when the first oil crisis hit. Other energy sources can replace oil in most areas of consumption. Only in the transportation sector will oil remain king for decades to come. We have seen efficiencies in the use of energy in the United States since the 1970s. For instance, in 1978 the United States used 32 barrels of oil per person per year. Today we use on 26 barrels of oil per person per year.

    The current high price of oil is stimulating investment in new production capacity that will be coming on line at the point when we can expect a decline in demand as the higher prices finally take their toll. Therefore, it will not be a surprise to see another price collapse a few years down the road when increased production comes online to meet decreased demand. If one looks at marginal production cost analysis a case can be made that the price of oil will eventually fall into the $30-40 range.

    Nothing has really changed in the oil industry. It remains subject to boom and bust cycles and periods of expensive and of cheap oil. And the prognostications of oil pessimists or of oil optimists cannot change this.
     
  12. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ken
    Your arguments are nothing new, I have heard them many times, so much so that it looks like you merely cut and pasted them. Unfortunately they are all the typical hope based arguments. “We hope we will find more oil”, “We hope technology will help us get more out of the ground”, “We hope Hubbert’s calculation turns out to be wrong”, “We hope the earth is actually making more”…etc. The problem with these arguments is that the facts are proving them wrong. The world peak of oil discovery happened in 1965 and has dwindled down to almost nothing last year in relative terms. In every area thus far the peak in production has occurred approximately 40 years after the peak in discovery. I could debunk each of the arguments again quite easily, but as suspected, every one of your arguments have already been debunked in the links I have already posted.

    Here is what Congressman Bartlett has to say.
    2005
    http://www.bartlett.house.gov/uploadedfiles/energyspeech4-20-05.pdf
    2006
    http://www.bartlett.house.gov/uploadedfiles/5-2-06 Oil Speech.pdf
    2007
    http://www.bartlett.house.gov/uploadedfiles/SpclOrderJanuary17-18.pdf

    Root site for further updates.
    http://www.bartlett.house.gov/EnergyUpdates/

    He concludes the 2007 speech with:
    “Mr Speaker, we in the world face a huge challenge. I just returned from China. They are talking about post-oil. They get it. I wish we did.”


    BGTF
     
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,005
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, BGTF, it appears that I am not going to convince you and that you are not going to convince me. We'll just have to figuratively shake hands and agree to disagree. :)
     
  14. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fair enough.

    The weird part though is that you see the ramifications of it by posting the credit problem issue. The Ponzi scheme of ever increasing credit requires an ever increasing source of energy to keep it going. The reason the Ponzi scheme of credit is starting to crumble is because the energy supply has stopped increasing.

    Oh well, I hope others at least understand the issue a bit more now.


    BGTF
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...