Worship in the Melting Pot

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Aaron, Feb 24, 2007.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron
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    So begins Peter Masters in his book, Worship in the Melting Pot (Wakeman, London. 2002). Masters is not a musician, he is a theologian, and he aptly described how the "new worship," CCM, is in violation of the four great principles of worship: spirituality, truth, holiness and reverence. He likened the new worship to medieval Catholicism which perverted the first three principles of worship in their practices, and added a fourth indictment to today's worship.
    The chapters of special interest are 6, 11 and 12. Chapter 6 is an indepth look at the use of instruments in the Temple and the Book of Psalms. ". . . but is it true that God allowed full instrumental worship in the Jewish church? Is it true, for example, that timbrels played by dancing maidens, led the worship? Is it true that the Jews regularly worshipped with percussion instruments and brass, generating powerful rhythmic music? A brief look at the data will show that this idea is a thousand miles wide of the mark."
    Chapters 11 and 12 are a look at hymns, their authors, their structure, subject matter and style.
    This book is a must read for all those who believe that fundamental issues are at stake where CCM is being accepted.
    (Dr. Peter Masters has been Minister of the world-famous Metropolitan Tabernacle (Spurgeon's) in central London since 1970.)

    Chapters
    1. Worship in the Melting Pot
    2. Three Broken Principles: I - Spiritual or Aesthetic Worship?
    3. II - Rational or Ecstatic Worship?
    4. III - Sacred or Profane Worship?
    5. Let the Lord Define Worship
    6. Brass, Strings and Percussion?
    7. Services of Worship in the Bible
    8. What Really Happened at Corinth?
    9. Whay Raise Hands?
    10. When Hymns were Born
    11. Seven Standards for Worthy Hymns
    12. A Gift Most Rare
    13. Reverence Begins in the Place of Worship
    14. Three Battles for the Soul in Evangelicalism
     
  2. annsni

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    Ya know - it's too bad he hasn't experienced true, modern worship - and not just contemporary Christian music. I can safely say that those 4 pillars ARE involved in the modern worship that we are in.

    My husband and daughters went to a Chris Tomlin/Matt Redman worship "concert" (for those who have ever been there, it's truly not a concert - about the artists but about God), and Louie Giglio spoke. Here's what one of them wrote about that night - right after it was over:

    From somewhere deep down in the bowels of Continental Airlines Arena…

    I’m really just sitting here speechless. This night….crazy.

    They say New York City (tonight we are all one happy New Jersey/New York family…and I’m sure people were here from all over the place) is the melting pot of the world, and maybe that’s why I love it so much. Maybe that’s why worship here always seems to take on a different tone…because the worship of Jesus Christ is, no doubt, a worldwide endeavor.

    Sure, there were 8000+ voices cranking, but it was the faces that made it special, so much of the world reflected in the many races and people that filled this place. And as the night was winding down, and we were totally losing it on “Glory In The Highest,” a line we have sung every night came roaring to life like never before:

    And no one else could ever compare
    To You, Lord
    All the earth together declares...
    Glory in the highest ... to You, Lord.

    Tonight was a little, tiny peak into what that’s all about. And as it unfolded, heaven got a bigger. That’s been a theme of my life for the past few years, as glimpses of gatherings on earth declare that heaven blows away anything we have ever dreamed, and the church that is headed there is doing quite well as His anthem spreads around the globe. Of course we have a massive mission before us, but at the front lines God's way is to have the singers of heaven’s song lead into the fray. That song is the down payment on a party that is going to leave us grasping for words and in utter awe. May we never become so enthralled with the puny glimmer of earth and lose sight of forever’s anthem…and heaven’s great and glorious King.

    For tonight, heaven is still open, and those who grab onto the Savior with all they are can find a home.

    Thank you New York/New Jersey. Thank You glorious Son. I am amazingly Yours.


    Spirituality is so there
    Truth is absolutely there
    Holiness - God's is recognized and ours is encouraged
    Reverence - oh my gosh, the awe - the reverence - the utter amazement of God is evident.

    It is pretty narrow minded to think that all of the great spiritual songs have been written. Old hymns are wonderful - and so many of them tell the gospel in their words. But there are not that many that are like the songs that we'll sing in heaven - songs of honor and praise to the Glorious Lamb of God - the Uncreated One - the Master of the Universe. When I worship, I want to focus on God - on His glory, power and majesty and not on me. It's not about me, it's about Him.
     
  3. Aaron

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    Well, of course you believe it's spiritual, rational, holy and reverent. No one who is involved in the new worship is going to say otherwise. The point of the book is that you don't know what spirituality, truth, holiness and reverence really are as defined by the Scriptures.

    So, to rebut his premises, you need to read Masters' book.
     
  4. tinytim

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    So anyone can write a book.
     
  5. tinytim

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    How dare you tell a brother or sister in Christ that they don't know what spirituality, truth, holiness and reverence really are!!

    She is your sister in Christ and you owe her an apology!

    You, sir, are playing God again.
    And there can only be room for one God in the universe.
    Just because you don't like a certain style worship does not make it wrong.
    You are not God... quit pretending to know what is in Annsi's heart!

    Just because some misguided person says modern worship is wrong does not make it wrong.

    Apparently you are replacing the real Masters book with the thoughts of a fallen Master.
    I'll read the real Master's book... The Bible...
    If you want to settle for something else... go for it... Just be warned.
     
    #5 tinytim, Feb 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2007
  6. annsni

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    LOL - So you seem to know so much about me - have we met? Have you seen my heart? Hmmm - interesting!

    You know, my husband is a worship pastor and I WILL get him this book. It will be interesting reading but honestly, a book will not change what the Scriptures say. Yes, there is very shallow worship - believe me - I've seen it too. But there is also comtemporary worship that IS true worship that is what God honors. There is also pretty shallow hymns that do nothing for God at all. Just a song written in a certain time period doesn't make true worship. I see nothing in Scripture about that and a book or one man's ideas doesn't make something true.

    Have YOU studied worship in the Scriptures?? Have YOU experienced true worship - the kind where you KNOW God is in your midst and nothing else matters? Have you felt that awe? I have and I have seen glimpses of what heaven is going to be like. Have you?

    edited for grammar. Sorry!

    BTW - Thanks, Tim. :D
     
  7. Joshua Rhodes

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    I'll check out the book when it comes to the library. Annsi, keep on... There are people here that believe that if you don't agree with them, you are wrong. To the "anti-everything that might be considered modern" crowd, this makes those of us who hold to the other side liberal, tolerant, and basically stupid Christians who don't know what true worship is according to Scripture.
     
  8. Aaron

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    I have the boldness that accompanies wisdom and knowledge.

    No I don't.

    Is that what you call it when you're in the pulpit telling folks what is right and what is wrong?

    If that were my criterion, than I would be amiss indeed, but my personal preferences are not my criteria, the Scriptures are my criteria.

    Her words reveal what is in her heart.

    Mimicking tiny: How dare you suggest that a brother in Christ is misguided! Are you playing Gawd, pretending to know what is in Peter Masters' heart?

    So, you believe the Bible says worship should be aesthetic and ecstatic?
     
    #8 Aaron, Feb 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2007
  9. Aaron

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    Good. I'd also suggest, Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement: Confessions of a Former Worship Leader, by Dan Lucarini.
     
  10. annsni

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    No worries, Joshua. I know my relationship with the Lord and I know true worship and experience it regularly. God is so beyond awesome and I know that He honors my worship that is done in spirit and in truth. :D Some cranky guy will never stop my standing in awe of the Creator and instead stop to stand with my hands folded singing a hymn with words that don't mean anything to my heart!

    Aaron - have you ever been in the Father's presence? If so, I hope you were awed and struck with His sovereignty, power and might! I don't think too many of us are going to stand before God and sing 4 verses of an old hymn. God is amazing, wonderful and more than I can ever imagine and worthy of so much more.

    Oh - and my words reveal what's in my heart - an overwhelming love for my Savior, Father and Creator God. It reveals a knowledge of who God is and that He is worthy of ALL of my praises.
     
  11. annsni

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  12. tinytim

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    [I have the boldness that accompanies wisdom and knowledge.

    OK You Say so...

    No I don't.

    Uh, Yeah you do... you are trying to belittle a sister in Christ because her worship style differs from you. That is inexcusable. But if you don't feel convicted by the Holy Spirit... .well, nothing I can do.

    Is that what you call it when you're in the pulpit telling folks what is right and what is wrong?

    I Preach from the Bible. It is not up to me to look at each individual's heart...That is God's part... The Holy Spirit will convict from His word.

    If that were my criterion, than I would be amiss indeed, but my personal preferences are not my criteria, the Scriptures are my criteria.

    I don't care how much you tell yourself that, the fact remains that you are mixing in your cultural opinions with Scripture....

    Her words reveal what is in her heart.

    Yes, she knows how to worship God... Have you been His presence lately, or have are you too busy telling His children what to do....God don't need you to parent us... He is the best parent around.

    Mimicking tiny: How dare you suggest that a brother in Christ is misguided! Are you playing Gawd, pretending to know what is in Peter Masters' heart?

    I judge that he is misguided from his own words. I am sure he is a good Christian... Just a little misguided from the same ilk you are.


    So, you believe the Bible says worship should be aesthetic and ecstatic?[

    I believe worship comes from the heart to God... whatever shape it may be.

    Black words are Aarons...
    Blue words are mine.
     
  13. Joshua Rhodes

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    Good for you, however, I might go so far as to say that if those hymns don't mean anything to you (or others) lyrically, then study them to see what they are truly saying. Some of the finest songs that will ever be written in worship to our Holy God are found in the great hymns of old. If you find a lyric that does move you, set it to new music. Find a new way to express an old sentiment. For examples, check out www.igracemusic.com. I'm a proponent of it all, because I think all those songs whether new or old have a place in our worship services, as long as they are theologically sound, musically interesting, and have educational and worship value! :thumbs:
     
  14. Aaron

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    Puhleeze! When one posts a nebulous, feel-good quote about one's ecstatic experiences at a rock concert, then attempts to judge that as spiritual, there can only be one conclusion from one who knows the biblical criteria of spirituality.



    I've been involved in Pentecostalism and Charismania. I've seen it all and done it all when it comes to what Baptists are calling worship these days. What annsni is describing as "in the Father's presence" is in reality the ecstatic feelings generated by the music and the performance. There's nothing really spiritual about it.

    And you will find nothing in the Bible concerning worship that is anything close to the description of the concert in this thread.


    First, you have to know his words to judge them. What does he mean by aesthetic worship? Ecstatic? Do you even know what those words mean? The presumption on your part is incredible. I should have said, "This is a must-read for those who presume to answer the arguments before they've read them."


    Second, "ilk"? It's kinda funny how I can be over the line saying someone doesn't understand what truly spiritual worship is, but you're not over the line to say exactly the same thing about someone else.
     
  15. annsni

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    Oh, I LOVE many of the old hymns - and we do them often at church. I love the history behind many of them too - I'm a geek that way. I find so many of the old hymns have the Gospel clearly spelled out in them too. There are times we have done a few of the old hymns with some new music or, as Chris Tomlin did with Amazing Grace (it's the theme song for the movie Amazing Grace), add in a chorus where there is none.

    But what I'm saying is that hymns are not the end all and do all of worship and God didn't place a special blessing on those old songs and never do that again with any songs. I also love so many of the new worship songs because they totally reflect my own heart to the Lord - Uncreated One is one -

    Holy Uncreated One
    Your beauty fills the skies
    But the glory of Your majesty
    Is the mercy in Your eyes

    Worthy Uncreated One
    From heaven to earth come down
    You laid aside Your royalty
    To wear the sinner's crown

    O Great God, be glorified
    Our lives laid down
    Yours magnified
    O Great God, be lifted high
    There is none like You

    Jesus, Savior, God's own son
    Risen, reigning Lord
    Sustainer of the Universe
    By the power of Your word

    And when we see Your matchless face
    In speechless awe we'll stand
    And there we'll bow with grateful hearts
    Unto the Great I am



    You know what bugs me in songs - old AND new?? The "me" centered ones. The ones that are weak theologically. The ones that are just so hoppy-boppy (the term my DH and I use) with no meat to them. I agree with you totally - worship songs should be theologically sound, musically interesting and definately have educational and worship value. :D

    One that KILLS us is one that says:

    Jesus, you are my best friend, you will always be, and nothing will ever change that.


    LOL - Bleck!! I don't know if you've ever heard that song but it's a VERY upbeat and boppy kind of song. Bleck!! WAY to thin and "me" centered for us. I guess some people like it but not us. LOL!
     
  16. annsni

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    Oh, so the fact that I feel the same way in prayer, in my study of Scripture, in just my own singing in the car acapella doesn't make a difference? The fact that there were 8,000 people with one heart praising our Lord God doesn't mean anything? Have you ever gone to a large baptism? I have - where more than 2 or 3 are getting baptized and I just cry. How wonderful to see people declaring their lives for the Lord! Heck - I do that when just ONE person is baptized! My heart is filled with joy when I see a group of teens meet every Wednesday morning at 6:30 at our high school to pray for their fellow students - yeah - that's the same feeling I get in worship. I see the awesomeness of God in each of those situations.

    So you've never read the passages where people fell on their faces in God's presence, huh? Where people were overwhelmed by Him?

    I'm sorry that you seem to have put God in such a box that you have to tell others that their experience with God is wrong. I know what true spiritual worship is - and I've done it not just with music. Even the stars sing His praises - does that fit your description of worship? What about when the trees clap their hands? Everything in this world is made to worship God - and it's just that people have had the ability to replace that object of worship with something else.

    I'm going to follow Scripture in my worship. Psalm 150 is a wonderful worship Psalm and certainly sounds like the kind of worship I want to be involved in - and what God honors!:

    1Praise the LORD!
    Praise God in his sanctuary;
    praise him in his mighty heavens![a]
    2Praise him for his mighty deeds;
    praise him according to his excellent greatness!
    3Praise him with trumpet sound;
    praise him with lute and harp!
    4Praise him with tambourine and dance;
    praise him with strings and pipe!
    5Praise him with sounding cymbals;
    praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
    6Let everything that has breath praise the LORD!
    Praise the LORD!
     
  17. Aaron

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    So, it really boils down to the style of music, and the feelings that you get when you're singing. Could you get this feeling if the music was taken away and the words were merely spoken?

    In reading the Psalms which contain words that are eminently more spiritual, and the content of which is indisputably doctrinally sound, do you get the same feeling of "awe"? Do you feel that you are "in the Father's presence" when reading them? What of the Sermon on the Mount? Do you get the urge to raise your hands, head tilted back, eyes lidded and sway while it's being read? Do you feel as if you've worshipped if you don't get that feeling?

    I think it's significant that Christ is called "The Word," and not "The Muse."
     
  18. Aaron

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    I see I posted after your reply. I don't believe you get the "same" feelings. I believe you get good feelings, but I don't believe they're the same. I don't believe you get the feeling to raise your hands when music isn't being played. No one who has answered my questions has answered them in the affirmative, and one who would doesn't seem credible.

    Am I calling you a liar? Not at all. I don't think you've thought of your feelings much to really know from whence they spring. I've seen and done it all, as I said. I've spoken in tongues and have been "slain" in the spirit. Now tell me again that I haven't experienced "true worship" by your definition.
     
  19. annsni

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    I can answer "yes" to most of those things. :D Personally, I just love the music too. But without the music, there are many hymns that still lack. There are many MODERN songs that lack (I already said that - I really have a problem with a lot of the modern worship songs - they're just so ...... ummmm...... surfacy and "me" oriented rather than praising God for who He is, they talk about "me"). But, without the music, there are hymns that I could use as a prayer to God - and modern songs that I could too. Worship is not just music and songs - it's much more than that to me and that's why this whole idea of a certain genre of songs being bad is wrong to me. The Sermon on the Mount might be a stretch because it's more teaching than worship but I praise God for Jesus' teaching!! It's not the feeling but the fact that I am able to turn my heart to God and praise Him for who He is - for the greatness and awesomeness that is God. I can look at the sunset at night and raise my hands and say "Wow, God - you are amazing!! You made this sunset and all it's colors! You are so good!". You know what else? When my husband fell off the roof and was laying in the hospital bed in the ER with a severely broken and dislocated foot (that has proven to end up being his "thorn in the side" so to speak - he's never recovered from that), we were still able to say the words of a worship song that he was JUST going to teach the congregation - "Blessed be the name of the Lord, blessed be Your name - You give and take away - My heart will CHOOSE to say, Lord, blessed be Your name" We were able to praise God despite what was going on - and it had nothing to do with a 'style' of music but a condition of the heart.

    So, it's not about the music but God created music and He honors hearts - not a 'style'. You can be doing the most wonderful hymns and have a wrong heart condition before the Lord - do you think He honors that? I see nothing in Scripture that defines "proper" worship as hymns only. But I see a lot more about God's concern for our hearts and souls. THAT is what I focus on. Where is my heart? Is it focused on God or me and what I'm doing?? That makes all the difference.

    BTW - I'm not charasmatic - I don't run and shout - I'm not uncontrolled and flailing around. Raising hands is Biblical. Closing my eyes shuts out the world just like closing my eyes during prayer does the same thing.
     
  20. trainbrainmommy

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    Didn't Christ shake up the foundations of tradition when He brought change of thinking to the Pharisees, Sadducees, temple worship and living under the Mosaic law? Change is not automatically wrong. It may be difficult, it may be uncomfortable, and it requires careful consideration and discernment.

    I attend a church where the majority of people enjoy "gospel" music. To DH and me, it is like listening to nails on a chalkboard. :eek: As long as the music is a style approved, the lyrics can be about as shallow as one could imagine - and mostly are, btw. But DH sang a contemporary rendition of an 1800's hymn full of deep theology and was kindly rebuked, but rebuked nonetheless.

    It is so tiring to me that people substitute their preferences for the Law. I have my feelings about contemporary music and struggle between the legalistic thinking I grew up hearing and listening to music that feeds my soul.

    DH and I lead P&W at our church. We are selective in choosing songs, we find Scripture that is highlighted by the songs and we try to set the tone for the service. Our service also includes hymns - they have not been replaced and there is special music. There are songs I listen to in my car that I would not sing in church - that becomes a matter of what is appropriate for church - not whether it is sinful or not.

    DH was not reared in a strict Christian home like I was. After HS he became convicted about listening to secular music - not through teaching in the church, but by his own personal Bible studies. He began listening to CCM even though he felt the talent level was lacking. He has never been convicted about listening to "his music." I believe that the same Holy Spirit who convicted him about secular music would convict him of CCM.

    Final thought. When I was in Bible College, the music professor railed about CCM and music that "didn't pass" approval. About 2 years after I graduated, he went to another college to teach and ended up having an affair with a lady online and left his wife and 3 kids. My point is this. Do not focus on music style and personal preference. Focus on your relationship with Christ and proper music will fall into place.

    OK - final "final thought". Why is it that advocates for "hymns only" forget that at the time the song was written and first played, it was contemporary music and often was not accepted for church use. ??? :confused:
     

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