Would this be the right place to ask a question about the translation of a verse?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by annsni, Sep 17, 2006.

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  1. annsni

    annsni
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    On another board I go to, someone translated a verse from Proverbs in a way I've NEVER seen before and I really question it. It's translating from the 'ancient Hebrew' reading how the characters are made up. Does anyone know enough about this to be able to help me with it? I just don't think it's right.

    Ann
     
  2. tinytim

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    What verse is it?
     
  3. annsni

    annsni
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    Proverbs 23:14 "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

    Here's what she said.....

    Proverbs has a verse that reads: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

    That is the reading in the English translation. In the ancient Hebrew it reads, literally: “You are to reveal the activity of life that is allowed, surrounding what destroys the household, and take authority over the activities of desire by consuming the activity of life with communication, and not allow desire to set the path.”

    nakah shebet natsal nephesh sh@'owl

    You read Hebrew from right to left so the last symbol is actually the first and you go up the list.

    nakah is made up of the Hebrew symbols:
    noon: activity, life
    kaf: to cover, to open, allow
    hey: 'the', to reveal

    So --- To reveal the allowed activity

    shebet is made up of these Hebrew symbols:
    sheen: to consume, to destroy
    bet: household, in, into, family
    tet: to surround

    So ----- surround the household from what destroys

    natsal (Hebrew symbols):
    noon: activity, life
    tsadik: catch, desire, need
    lamed: control, authority, tongue

    So ----- speak authority over the desires of activity

    nephesh =
    noon: activity, life
    pey: to speak, avoid, to open
    sheen: to consume, to destroy

    So ---- to consume with communication the activity of life

    sh@'owl =
    sheen: to consume, to destroy
    alef: strong, leader, first
    reysh: a person, the head, the highest
    lamed: control, authority, the tongue

    So -------- what controls the person and leads to destruction

    Now, putting it all together:

    ”Reveal the allowed activity and surround the household from what destroys speaking authority over the desires of activity and consuming with communication the activity of life to avoid what controls the person and leads to destruction.”


     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    From a quick glance at it, I would say that this person is either crazy or ignorant of how Hebrew works. This is not a literal translation that this person has given you. It appears that this person has taken each seperate consonant of each whole of the word and translated it. The consonants are but a part of the whole word and were not meant to be translated in that manner. I hope this makes sense.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #4 Joseph_Botwinick, Sep 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2006
  5. Marcia

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    I don't know Hebrew, but the word "Sheol" is in there somewhere. So it's saying that discipline may save the child from death. Here's how the ESV renders it (with a footnote that "Sheol" is "death":
    The NASB has "Sheol."

    The King James and NKJ, I think, translate Sheol as "hell," which was the word for grave/death.

    My pastor says the principle here is that children need to learn discipline in the home to learn and right and wrong; otherwise, they will have to learn out in the world, which is a hard taskmaster, and the discipline may bring on real suffering there, even death.
     
  6. annsni

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    Yeah - I was likening it for my husband to translating the word "document" as "dock - meaning a pier into the water", "u - meaning You" and "ment - as in 'I meant to say something else'" so it's translated 'meant you pier". It just totally doesn't make sense OR work.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I am looking at the Masoretic Text and not even all of the transliteration is correct. The correct transliteration would be:

    atah bashevet tahkenu venapsho misheol tatzil

    and the literal wooden, word for word translation is:

    you with the rod shall beat him and his soul from sheol you shall deliver

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. annsni

    annsni
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    Yeah - on BibleGateway, that's pretty much how the Young's Literal Translation says it:

    Thou with a rod smitest him, And his soul from Sheol thou deliverest.
     
  9. annsni

    annsni
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    Have any of you ever heard of translating like this lady is doing? Is there any evidence that this could possibly be a proper translation?? (I know it's not but I just want to cover my bases - I'm not really 'up' on Hebrew myself - LOL!)
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I took Hebrew in Seminary and have studied it for many years since then. This is not a legitimate way to translate Hebrew. I know of nobody who does this when translating Hebrew outside of nuts who are possibly looking for some kind of code in the Hebrew or who are just plain ignorant of how Hebrew works.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. annsni

    annsni
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    OK - In searching this out, apparently she's read a book called "Hebrew Word Pictures" by Dr. Frank T. Seekins. I'm trying to find out more about him.
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    The guy is a quack.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. annsni

    annsni
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    Can you show me good proof of that? I need ammo.......

    I think the whole thing is quackery ..... kind of reminds me of Bible codes but I could be wrong.
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Here is his resume. You will note that nowhere in this resume is there any formal training in Hebrew. He is butchering the Hebrew language for what reason I don't know. But, I assure you that this translation method is not legitimate which makes him a quack.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  15. annsni

    annsni
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    That's not the same guy - I'm looking for Dr. Frank T. Seekins - that's the resume of Richard A. McGough.

    Ann
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

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    You're right. My apologies for not paying closer attention. Let me just tell you as someone who knows Hebrew that this is not legitimate.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  17. annsni

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    Thanks for your help, though! I'm just trying to find SOME sort of good information on this. I even contacted the Christian Research Institute - if someone can pull someone apart, it's them! LOL!!

    I totally agree that there's something wrong with this. I mean, to come up with the definition she came up with is bizarre to say the least. Of course, her motive is to prove that spanking is not Biblical, though....
     
  18. LeBuick

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    That's another spin off the old spare the rod spoil the child.

    Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
    14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

    Just don't leave marks or social service will get ya...
     
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