Would This Prayer Be A Step Toward Salvation?

Whenever I see a post like this (and it is certanly not without value) I think of this passage of Scripture

Judges 12

5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.​

We all seem to have our "Shibboleths"... "TULIP", "Reformed", "Evangelical" "Bible believing", "dispensational", "preterist", etc, etc...and a standard by which to judge others and often chuck them into hell if they disagree.​

As to the O/P, I believe we can all agree from Aminian to hyper-calvinist (supralapsarian) that "salvation is of the Lord".​

Who can know from the O/P where in the salvific schematic that this man is?​

"...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"​

Is he responding to God's call? Has the Spirit of God brought him into conviction of sin? Has he actually been regenerated, who can tell?
Only God.​

So perhaps he gets some words wrong. We are so spiritually lacking even after regeneration (especially as babes in Christ) that we really don't even know how to pray properly:​

KJV Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.​

But God knows His own and "salvation is of the Lord" not according to our opinion. ​

True, if we are in a place of leadership oft times we MUST make a call as to baptism and church membership, so I would say that the man in the O/P needs to be further counseled as to certain other concepts mentioned above (calling, conviction, etc).​

In addition he needs to be taught and then see if he departs or bears fruit.

So, I don't think we can really tell where this man is spiritually from the O/P.​

If I were to forced to make a decision just from the O/P alone, I would say that there is at least the definite possibility of the calling from the Father as he is not in open rebellion to spiritual things.​

HankD​

 

You have strayed so far from the subject of this op, I do not even know what you are talking about. Your posts are way over the line. It is against BB rules to suggest or imply that someone is not saved. I got news for you. Your opinion of Biblical doctrine does not certify it as Biblical truth.

Webdog is a fine Christian, and while we disagree over some points of what you are calling TULIP (which has nothing to do with this thread), he is a Christian brother, and we just see some points of doctrine different. From your attitude, I wish you were on the other side of this question. You owe Webdog an apology, but my guess it with not be forthcoming.

 

I believe Paul told us the right words.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Believing these words is the whole of the gospel message. These are the only right words.

MB

 

I wonder would you show just one pedal of the tulip from scripture. Any one of the 5 will do.
MB

 

Amen MB. But we are not told what immediately preceded this prayer (or request thereof).

What if we knew that the gospel had just been preached to the man.

To believe from the Scripture that Christ bled on the cross, died was buried and then rose again from the dead for the forgiveness of sin.

What then of this prayer? I would say that there is the possibility of at least an awakening going on here.

Even if the gospel was not preached, something about Christ was preached/taught because He is mentioned in the prayer.

I don't think we can know every detail of God's method in calling us from the grave and awakening us from the spiritual sleep of death.

So, even at what seems to be the worst possible scenario there may be a glimmer of hope (humanly speaking) for this man.

HankD

 

Where did I say my understanding is infallible? You people never cease from such false accusations.

My view is consistent and is from Scripture and Scripture alone.

 

I have no doubt that God can and does open minds up to receive the truth. Sometimes they are open long before they actually get a good picture of the gospel. I sat in church most of my child hood. My Parents were both Christians who let there light shine to everyone. As a child I wanted what I wanted and until I found out that I had become what I hated most I had never been convicted. It seemed to me God let me hit the bottom of the barrel before He helped me climb out of it.
There is one thing I know for sure and that is until a man is willing to submit to the righteousness of God he can believe until he turns purple but it isn't a real belief until he submits to God. This isn't a work but rather it is giving up of the rebellion.
Paul was a Jew and He loved his brothers Rom 10:1-4

I'm convinced we need to believe the whole gospel and submit or surrender to God. No one can believe what he doesn't know unless it is revealed as it was to Saul

It can only be sincere if they have an understanding of the gospel. Christ dying for us then being raised from the dead. and a clear understanding of what that means is needed for Salvation.
The spirit being dead to God is metaphorical. it isn't nor was it ever intended to meant as a literal death of the spirit of man. God considers men dead who do not believe in Him.
I do not believe in Regeneration before Salvation. I believe there is an opening of the mind as in an act of the Holy Spirit but it is not nor is it ever described as regeneration.
I've heard stories of men being saved in a matter of one sermon but some how some where along the way they had to learn more than that. I can't deny that it's true of course but most in this country know who Christ is and what He is.
When God opens your heart miracles happen.
Myself I had memorized many scriptures before I was saved I had to read the Bible everyday at the dinner table I heard my parents talk about Salvation all the time. I believe a man can hold the truth and not be saved. Even believe it to an extent. You could say this is why we know it is all of God.

There is always hope in Christ. What goes on in the heart we don't know anything about or even can see. but we can tell by a man's change in his life.
I don't exactly know what is in a man's heart and neither does anyone else. This is why I've always said none of us really know if a man is really saved or not. We can ask the questions we know what is involved in Salvation. Such as do they believe that Christ is the Son of God and do they believe He died for there sins and can save them and that He rose again on the third day.
Yet when we know they've sat in church every Sunday all there lives we can't truly know if they really do understand. I guess You could say I leave it up to God He knows. I've always been afraid that no one has heard a word that's come out of my mouth. This is where it's in God's hands it was never in ours to begin with. The preaching of the gospel is done through us not by us.
I'm not a preacher. I'm just an elder in my church. Yet I talk with people all the time I know some wish I'd shut up. All any of us can do is tell others about Christ. It 's God who has drawn them, It is the Spirit that convinces them of the truth not us. It is the Spirit that convicts them through there being convinced and it is the conviction that takes them to there knees in submission to the Righteousness of God. Us telling them is us being commanded by the commander. The same way a carpenter uses his hammer. I always pray the Lord will use me because I have no abilities of myself. It has to be all of God or it just doesn't work.
Some of my perceptions are similar to what some Calvinist believe but as you can tell not entirely. I rely on His word for the truth and I study it and Love it. I let God speak to me through it.
MB

 

I think it becomes a shock because in culture people have been groomed for relativism

Why my good man I can show you everyone from Scripture for that is where they come from. One is it you say? One you shall get.

Let me see shall I do T - Total Depravity of men?

Romans 8:7-8, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

2 Cor. 3:12-18, "Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Or shall I show you Unconditional Election

John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

How about Limited Atonement

Matthew 1:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."


John 10:15, "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

How about Irresistible grace

Daniel 4:35, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;"

No, how about I show you Perseverance of the Saints

John 6:37-39, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Jude 1:24: "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy...."

Why it appears I covered them all when you were sure I could cover none.

 

I won't address the others except to say that I see both sides use the same verses many times.

How is Matt 1.21 LA? Matt 1.21 is simply saying Jesus came to save the Jews (he came for "his people," the Jews.)

 

But now we who are chosen are His people as of Peter's Vision, there is no more distinction between jew and gentile. We who are chosen now are His people too.

 

Thank you for the thorough response MB.

I believe I understand some of what you are saying. When I was a child paint-by-the-numbers was quite popular. You would buy an unpainted picture that was segmented up into little sections. Each section had a number.

You also had a set of paints with the corresponding numbers.
A little bit of pink, a little blue, a little green...

After you painted each section with the appropriately numbered paint , you had a beautiful painting.

But it really wasn't yours since it was a piant-by-the-numbers picture.

Sadly it seems, many Christians have a paint-by-the-numbers Christianity.

A little bit of MacArthur, a little Spurgeon, a little Calvin, a little Augustine...etc.


HankD

 

After reading my response above, to be fair I didn't mean that we should not examine the works of any of these men mentioned above or even agree with some of the views that they held but let this be our guide:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​

The Scripture is our final authority. My point is that whatever viewpoint we hold concerning a doctrine ought to be ultimately decided and discerned from the Scripture and not just what our favorite writer believes (although they may be the same).​

The ultimate of this flawed kind of "faith" is from the Church of Rome in which the members are bound under penalty of excommunication to believe what the Magesterium has promulgated. Therefore the Scripture can be bypassed in favor of the interpretations of men.​

HankD​

 

No. That doesn't have anything to do with salvation.

Don't get me wrong, it's good that the person is expressing a desire to know Christ (assuming they're talking about the Christ of the Bible and not the Christ of pop-Christianity), but how can such a prayer save them when they've said nothing about their sin, expressed any desire to repent, acknowledged their need for a savior, or put their faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross?

And whoever it was who said that prayer makes them a part of the family of God should be ashamed of themselves. I can only imagine them standing in Heaven and, as the lost person is being dragged off to an eternity in Hell, screaming at him, "Why did you lie to me??? Why didn't you give me the Gospel??? Why didn't you tell me I was in danger of facing God's wrath???"

 

Exactly, in response to what I have 'emboldened', above.

As I responded in post #9 (which was actually posted before I even looked at any post(s) on the thread, there is no such thing as any "steps" to salvation to be found, in Scripture.

Anyway, welcome to the Baptist Board. :wavey:

Personally, as one who is a farmer, I have long since gotten away from being a 'fan' of any particular paint color, and am now far more a 'fan' of cost of the equipment, service, reliability, and parts availability. If that color happens to be "green" for some equipment, that's fine; if it happens to be "red", "orange", "white" or "blue" - that's fine. Add it is why we pull a red 'haybine' or a red mower with a red tractor, a green rake with a gray tractor (1950 vintage) and two different green balers, the big baler with a large 'duallie' tractor (love that cool cab in the hot weather, even if the tractor is a rather large junky looking thing) that appears as 'white' (not the brand), or a small baler with about anything with four wheels and a PTO, except for that that big white behemoth, with a 'green' wagon trailing that small baler, and one or two red- sunburned individuals (including me, at times) loading the wagon.

But I am very partial to 'red' caps (regardless of what brand is being 'hawked'), not liking those that are green, blue, brown, black, yellow or white, regardless of the color of the tractor and equipment I may be happen to be operating. :laugh:

Ed

 

exactly, in response to what I have 'emboldened', above.

As I responded in post #9 (which was actually posted before I even looked at any post(s) on the thread, there is no such thing as any "steps" to salvation to be found, in Scripture.

Anyway, welcome to the Baptist Board. :wavey:

Personally, as one who is a farmer, I have long since gotten away from being a 'fan' of any particular color, and am now far more 'fan' of cost, service, reliability, and parts availability. If that color happens to be "green" for some equipment, that's fine; if it happens to be "red", "orange", "white" or "blue" - that's fine. Add it is why we pull a red 'haybine' or a red mower with a red tractor, a green rake with a gray tractor (1950 vintage) and two different green balers, the big baler with a large 'duallie' tractor (love that cool cab in the hot weather, even if the tractor is a rather large junky looking thing) that appears as 'white' (not the brand), or a small baler with about anything with four wheels and a PTO, except for that that big white behemoth, with a 'green' wagon trailing that small baler, and one or two red- sunburned individuals (including me, at times) loading the wagon.

But I am very partial to 'red' caps (regardless of what brand is being 'hawked'), not liking those that are green, blue, brown, black, yellow or white, regardless of the color of the tractor and equipment I may be happen to be operating. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed