Would you classify John The Baptist as a fundamentalist or a Pharisee?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Shiloh, Dec 14, 2003.

  1. Shiloh

    Shiloh
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    Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
    Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
    Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
    1. John stood alone vs.3
    2. John was a non-conformist vs.3
    3. John proclaimed an unpopular message vs.2
    4. Johns position attracted many vs.5
    5. Johns ministry repelled some vs.7
    6. John did not fear man vs.7
    7. John believed repentance brought a change vs.8
    8. John was honored by Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit.
    On this board (fundamentalist...and I'm being respectful Murph, don't shoot me out of the water) in my opinion most posters condone smoking, drinking wine and in some cases beer, women preachers, fellowship with homosexuals and in one forum having lunch alone with a person of the opposite sex, dancing...wait I know David did it...of course he did other things too. Before you super spiritual giants jump on me and tell me David was a man after God's own heart....David also paid a price no one on this board would be willing to pay! They also condone the use of bibles that use bad language. I'M NOT GETTING ON TRANSLATIONS MURPH....TAKE YOUR PILLS, would you let me use the language on this board some of the "bibles" contain that the posters here use? :eek: I'm sorry Murph, I know you are watching me.....my mother sleeps better now.
    Here's my thought, why do so many here want to live and look like the world when our salvation should have made a change in us, IICor.5:17. If we don't know exactly how to dress, talk, drink what have ya and we err wouldn't it be more Christ like to err to the right? 1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. Pro 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
    Just a thought, Unless there is within us that which is above us we will soon succumb to that which is about us. I fear most on this board are here.
     
  2. Helen

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    Shiloh, I have to admit your attitude irritates me no end -- you are so judgemental and sure of yourself, whereas humility is the order of the biblical day.

    That being said, and I'm sorry to start off so negatively, I find myself agreeing with the aim of your post, although not some of your comments.

    Yes, we should be different. Radically different. But this difference (and this is where you and I disagree) is not a matter of clothes -- apart from basic modesty -- or a number of other cultural norms. It is, rather, a matter of character; a transformation of the person him or herself. And this cannot be avoided, for you will see in Philippians 1:6 that it is Christ Himself who takes responsibility for the changes going on inside those who are born again, and in Romans 8:28-30, as well as so many other verses, that this process is inexorable. It WILL happen.

    So while there may be some need for more discipline in the lives of some than others (Hebrews 12), due to straying like the silly sheep we are, Christ will not lose any that are His.

    I have done a reasonable amount of traveling to different countries -- several where I do not speak the language. But you know something? Christians recognize Christians. There is that within the eyes and manner of someone who belongs to God which attracts -- and is recognizable by -- others who are His. The difference is clear and remarkable. It does not matter if the Christian is wearing a sari, jeans, a kilt, or a formal gown or tux. It does not matter which Christian church the person attends. Yes, there is modesty, but it only shows up in the clothing -- it does not start there. It is, rather, welling up from deep inside as a form of humble worship of a God they have come to know and love.

    What was John the Baptist? Do you know we do not even have a guarantee that he is in heaven? Look at Jesus' very words about him:

    What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written:

    "I will send my messenger ahead of you,
    who will prepare your way before you."

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; YET THE ONE WHO IS LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS GREATER THAN HE.


    An interesting statement... what do you make of it?

    It's from Luke 7, which I am sure you know.
     
  3. TWade

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    This man claims to be a pastor. Go read some of his abusiveness in the Youth Forum (the "Homosexuals as Friends" thread). I have reported his last post in that thread.

    It only proves to me that there are men standing in the pulpit who are not truly called to hold that position.
     
  4. ArcticBound

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    That is definitely a new ONE: JOHN the Baptist not in HEAVEN! I guess he's not there because he preached against(GASP)SIN! This "Baptist" board gets more interesting everyday!

    Forget about John the Baptist being a Fundamentalist (which I believe he was), Some here would believe Jesus was a LEGALISTS!
    Jesus was a very narrow person: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
    Can you believe it that Jesus actually said, "If ye love me keep my commandments." John 14:15
    JESUS actually turned a rich young ruler away because he wasn't willing to forsake all.
     
  5. Helen

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    ArticBound, I did not say he was not in heaven; I simply said Jesus did not give us assurance of that. Please do not misunderstand what I said; I simply quoted our Lord.

    What do YOU make of that verse?
     
  6. Daniel David

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    Helen, that verse serves as a witness to the superiority of the New Covenant. John lived and died under the Old Covenant.

    Was John a fundamentalist? Yes. Was he obnoxious? No.

    Remember, the offensive part about christianity is that our message is exclusive and it demands repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. People don't want to hear that.

    If our message is first about what we do, then we fail. People can look perfect on the ourside and do all the right things outwardly and be cast into the pit one day.

    Personally, I find the arguments against women in pants to be laughable.

    Historically, men were the ones with button down shirts. During the time that fashion became acceptable, women were wearing dressing that exposed alot of their womanhood (while wearing dresses). For a woman to wear a shirt that is button down today, she has to violate the law which says a woman may not appear as a man and vice versa.

    Sound absurd? You should hear the arguments against women in pants.

    Fundamentalists are true to doctrine and are willing to separate over it.

    Just a word about the KJV and bad language, do you still refer to children born out of wedlock as b-st-rds? Does a bathroom visit include p-ss-ng? Not to mention taking the Lord's name in vain with "God forbid". I could continue but won't because I tire of the foolishness.
     
  7. Helen

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    Thanks, DD. I rather expect to find him in heaven, actually!

    And brother, have I 'been there done that' with the arguments about women in pants. Interesting about the button-down shirts, though. I have exceedingly little knowledge of fashion history. My basic knowledge consists of either "gee, that's pretty" or "yuck!"

    I try to live more in the first category, but working around here I'm afraid I might be classified in the second too much of the time!
    :D
     
  8. Shiloh

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    Hello dear Helen, I'm sorry my attitude irritates you. I would love to have the privilege of preaching to you but of course that's not possible being I only preach in Ind. Fund. Baptist churches. ;) oh there's that attitude again.
    John the Baptist, Luke 7.......
    1. The Lord Jesus praised John's STEADFASTNESS, vs.24, Prov.29:25, Rom.12:2
    2. The Lord praised him for living a life of SELF-SACRIFICE, and SELF-DENIAL....oh dear..
    3. The Lord praised him for being a PROPHET
    The Lord Jesus is saying in vs.28, that it could be possible for the lowliest Christian in their glorified body that has lived a life pleasing to God in close communion with Him to be in greater blessedness than John the Baptist was in his earthly ministry.
     
  9. Shiloh

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    ArcticBound
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    posted December 14, 2003 03:03 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Publicans and Sinners Jesus hang around GOT CHANGED!
    The Publicans became honest (giving four-fold back to those that cheated)
    The harlots were no longer harlots
    The Maniac put on clothes and changed his LIFESTYLE!
    JESUS turned many away by HIS teaching like the rich young ruler and by others who said they wanted to follow Him. Most people want a "Get out of hell card", so they can live any way they please. A Real dose of Salvation will change a man. (2 Cor. 514) I have something inside me called the Holy Spirit and when I am reading my Bible and praying like I should, He lets me know when I should or shouldn't be doing something. I can either listen to Him or not.

    You can't tell me the drug addict and drunkard and harlot (etc.) who gets saved will change a lot of lives for Christ by continuing in that sin.

    By the way TINYTIM,
    What do you think about the New king james with it's pagan symbol...IS IT STILL HOGWASH?
    GOOD POST ARTICBOUND!! Grace needs to see this again.
     
  10. Daniel David

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    No, Jesus is demonstrating that the greatest prophet of the Old Covenant is still less glorious than one found in the New Covenant.

    Your explanation might make for good preaching, but it does not mean that.
     
  11. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Shiloh,

    I realise that I am probably beating a dead horse, but I’ll give it a go. You have changed threads, but not tenor. You are still making accusations of worldliness against those who disagree with you. You still have not instructed me on Biblical worldliness. I will go ahead and repeat my partial list of what has been referred to as worldly. I would appreciate your instruction as a pastor as to which of these things are worldly, with Bible reasons why they are. To stay in line with the thread, perhaps you can share which ones John the Baptist would have opposed with Bible reasons why.

    Is it worldly for women to wear trousers?

    Is it worldly to go to the cinema to see a family film?

    Is it worldly for my hair as a man to touch my ears and/or collar?

    Is facial hair worldly?

    Is it worldly to listen to the Carpenters Christmas CD which I am listening to?

    Is it worldly to dance with my wife?

    Please, no accusation of “trying to be as close to the world as possible” or “being a lover of the world.” Instruct me Biblically as to your answer to my questions with a Bible reason. If James 4v17 is applicable, I need to know why obeying these standards is “good.”

    Since you never answered these points on the other thread, all I really expect is to be called a worldly liberal. I do not think you are a Pharisee for holding your own convictions. Yet, before I could make them mine I need to see that they are Bible, not man made standards.

    Thank you for your consideration.
     
  12. gopchad

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    Shiloh,

    I was wondering if you would consider me a IFB.

    I...

    Use only the KJV because I believe that the modern translations have a tendency toward New-agism and humanism,
    Live a separated life,
    Teach Sunday School in an IFB Baptist church,
    Believe smoking, drinking, dancing, etc. to be of the Devil,
    Will send my daughter to a Christian School when she is old enough because of aforementioned humanism in public schools,
    Believe that homosexuality is more than just sin, God calls it an abomination,
    Still believe in door-knocking soul-winning and go door knocking,
    Don't listen to the world's music including CCM,
    Allow my wife to wear pants...

    Too often we forget that God's standard for dress is two-fold, modesty and differentiation between the sexes. I don't know about you Shiloh, but I would look awful funny in my wife's pants. Ther are also certain activities that would be immodest/impractical in a dress or cullottes. If a person truly find himself having sinful thoughts about women in modest loosefitting pants, I would suggest that the person with the evil thoughts has the problem, not my wife (who happens to be the daughter of an IFB pastor).
     
  13. TWade

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    I am all for preaching against sin. I am all for using the Law to show man's sinfulness. I am all for a Christian living a set-apart life. But leave your abusive personality and personal attacks out of it.

    Preach the Bible and cease from making false accusations and ignorant assumptions.
     
  14. Walls

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  15. gb93433

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    Anyone who comes with judgment might remember Romans 2:1, "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

    A man will judge in another what is true about himself. I really do feel sorry for those kind of people. They have to live with themselves. They don't understand the grace of God that has been given them. And the fact is that they really don't understand the judgment of God either. They are filled with such poison that goes against all who God is.

    However they do have an audience that will listen. But the audience feeds on the sickness of selfishness by building themsleves up at the expense of tearing others down.

    Anyone who judges another has little strength. A person who knows God does not have to go about egotistical. When Jesus met the woman at the well, He asked her if she had any accusers. He didn't accuse her. He showed great compassion while at the same time knowing all about her. Jesus didn't come for the righteous. He came to save those who were lost and without a savior.

    We have nothing to boast about. All have sinned. "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."

    When a person who is judgmental and meets God face to face they cdome out a very diferent person. They know God and they understand who God is. They also get a great compassion for the lost and others who need to know the savior better.

    [ December 14, 2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]
     
  16. Terry_Herrington

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    I believe that John the Baptist was a fundamentalist, so to speak. However, I have yet to see where he preached against these silly standards you are referring to. BTW, I don't believe that John the Baptist used a KJV.
     
  17. Dr. Bob

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    Shiloh, like anyone else reading these threads, I can certainly evaluate your posts here as well as the vitriolic spewing on other threads. As a "fruit inspector", I ask you to CONSIDER YOUR WAYS.

    I am a fundamentalist, proudly so. You, sir/ma'am, are not worthy of that name. I know it's hard to post "from your knees", but it might give you a godly perspective.

    Your attack and disregard for Moderators shows only immaturity and antinomian spirit. Posting on any thread is a privilege . . a privilege that may be revoked at any time.

    Thank you for reading this and understanding the facts of BB life.

    Dr. Bob
    Administrator
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    As for the topic at hand, I am trying to see ANY possible parallel between John the baptizer and the type of "fundamental" poster you claim to be.

    And yes, I believe John will be in heaven. Not as part of the Bride of Christ, but certainly like Abra'am or Moses, as part of the redeemed.
     
  19. Tim

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    No, Jesus is demonstrating that the greatest prophet of the Old Covenant is still less glorious than one found in the New Covenant.Your explanation might make for good preaching, but it does not mean that. </font>[/QUOTE]As is often he case, an understanding of the vast superiority of the New Covenant over the Old sheds light on many difficult verses in the New Testament.

    Thanks for clarifying that, DD.

    A believer in the better covenant,

    Tim
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Is there any other kind?
     

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