Would you dare pray this prayer,,,?

Thanks Skandalon, but I did not say that God refuses to give people faith, I said that God has no faith to give.

GOD IS FAITH-LESS, meaning that he is devoid of any faith to give to man. Now that is not to say that God is not faithful, because there is none who is more faithful than God. He simply has no faith to give to man.

Since God has no faith to give to man, where does man get the faith that God demands of him? When you resolve that issue, then you may begin to understand that MAN must respond to God of his own doing! </font>[/QUOTE]You cannot be serious Yelsew, please tell me that you do not really believe this! </font>[/QUOTE]Why, Mike, I certainly do believe this with all my heart!

You prove to me that God has faith or even the slightest need for faith, and you may shake my belief that He has none. It must be the very same faith that man has, it cannot be some nebulous statement, like God gives faith to man. You must prove that HE has faith to give away, that is, to transfer from his possession to the possession of man. You can also set out to prove that God gives away his Grace if you want to, the result is the same.

If you can give me even one clue that God hopes for anything, or that he cannot see something, thereby requiring HIM to have faith as we humans must have faith, then you will certainly shake my belief to the ground. But until you can, then you must consider what I've said on the matter to be true!

 

These words are Paul's words used to explain a spiritual principle or truth. He repeats himself to the various churches in diverse places.

What did John the baptist say of Jesus? "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world". What did Jesus do? He took upon himself the sins of the world, and Died. Now it is important to catch this connection, because if the "sins of the world are taken away, yet man continues to sin, what is it that was removed from man? That's right...The penalty for sin which is death.

Now if there had not been an atonement by the Son of God, man would still be under the penalty of sin, for all have sinned. But because the penalty of sin has been paid ONCE, For ALL, the rest of mankind need not die because of sin. "...Whosoever believeth on Him (Jesus, the Son of God) shall not perish but have everlasting life". Believing is the foundation of faith, so all who believe in Jesus, because Jesus atoned for all sins, shall have everlasting life. All WHO DO NOT BELIEVE in Jesus, that is, have faith in the Son of God shall not have everlasting life. So then what is the Salvation equation?

FAITH = SALVATION

But what happened to wicked dead that are punished in the lake of fire for their sins? THEY NEVER EXISTED! For no one is punished in the lake of fire for sins, but instead, for not believing in Jesus, the Son of God or NOT having a saving faith in God as Abraham did!

Granted, unbelievers will not confess their sins and get them forgiven, so Yes, their sins remain with them in their condition of lack of faith. But it truly is their lack of faith in God that condemns them to the Lake of Fire. Furthermore, the definition of sins is "deeds", where the definition of faith or the lack thereof is "a condition or state of being"

I do not know, Why don't you ask them? I'm not all that concerned what other's believe, they cannot believe for me, they cannot be saved for me, they cannot confess my sins for me, and they cannot receive forgiveness for my sins nor be cleansed of unrighteousness on my behalf. I alone am responsible for my salvation! No, I do not save me, but without me, I cannot be saved!

True if they are not believers in God, they will not be punished for their sins, but for their lack of belief. I do not recall reading where Judas was a believer in the Christ! A follower, yes, a Betrayer? ABSOLUTELY, but a believer in the Christ? You'll have to show me where such a declaration or confession is made by Judas.

Ian, If you will not accept the plain words of Jesus, who is LORD OF ALL, spoken to Nicodemus, Why do you believe Paul who was merely trying to explain Jesus? Why do you accept Paul as a greater authority than Jesus? It seems to me you are more conscious of man than you are of the Son of God! That in itself may be a sin.

In whom Ian? In Paul?

 

Yelsew

You said,'What did John the baptist say of Jesus? "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world". What did Jesus do? He took upon himself the sins of the world, and Died. Now it is important to catch this connection, because if the "sins of the world are taken away, yet man continues to sin, what is it that was removed from man? That's right...The penalty for sin which is death.'
and
'Ian, If you will not accept the plain words of Jesus, who is LORD OF ALL, spoken to Nicodemus, Why do you believe Paul who was merely trying to explain Jesus? Why do you accept Paul as a greater authority than Jesus? It seems to me you are more conscious of man than you are of the Son of God!'

Paul and Jesus are not in competition, nor are their teachings of different values - Paul speaks by the Spirit of Jesus. What Paul says is God's Word. We cannot set one text of Scripture against another - both must agree. If our interpretation cannot reconcile that, our interpretation must be wrong. You set aside Paul's teaching that God's wrath comes on man because of his unrighteous deeds, to uphold your view that Christ took away the penalty of sin for every man without exception. I say that Christ took away the sins of the world He loved, the elect He had chosen out of this world. This fits with the abundance of texts that speak of Christ loving the Church and giving Himself for her, saving His people from their sins, laying down His life for His sheep - all referring to an atonement made for a particular people.

If your interpretation of 'sins of the world' is correct, then of course Paul was wrong in believing men are punished in hell for their sins. But then Christ also erred when He spoke said that those who caused His little ones to stumble would suffer for that sin.

You also said, 'Furthermore, the definition of sins is "deeds",'

Yes, that is exactly the point - so Paul can say in Romans 2:5 'But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds"'

You said, 'I do not recall reading where Judas was a believer in the Christ! A follower, yes, a Betrayer? ABSOLUTELY, but a believer in the Christ? You'll have to show me where such a declaration or confession is made by Judas.'

The point was that Judas was going to be punished for his betrayal, not just for his unbelief. What would the point be of Jesus' words if He meant no more than Judas would be punished for his unbelief? Why even mention Judas, since every unbeliever will suffer likewise? But Jesus mentions Judas because of the enormity of the sin of betrayal of the Righteous One.

I hope you think this through before continuing in your beliefs. Is ALL Scripture inspired of God? Without error in ALL that it asserts? If you don't accept that, debate about any doctrine of Scripture is futile, for we can prove anything from a single text.

In Him

Ian

 

Why did Judas betray Jesus? It was because Judas did not have faith in Jesus, therefore He sinned against Him. You don't betray those you have faith in. You see it is the LACK OF FAITH that leads to the sin, not the sin that leads to lack of faith.

For the one who has faith, Confession of sin brings forgiveness!

For the one who Lacks faith, there is no one to confess to! And, in fact the sin is not recognized as sin to the one who has no faith in God.

Judas did not die for sin, but for lack of faith! Lack of faith causes all kinds of maladies.

 

Yelsew

You said, 'Why did Judas betray Jesus? It was because Judas did not have faith in Jesus, therefore He sinned against Him. You don't betray those you have faith in. You see it is the LACK OF FAITH that leads to the sin, not the sin that leads to lack of faith.
For the one who has faith, Confession of sin brings forgiveness!
For the one who Lacks faith, there is no one to confess to! And, in fact the sin is not recognized as sin to the one who has no faith in God.
Judas did not die for sin, but for lack of faith! Lack of faith causes all kinds of maladies.'

Certainly it was his lack of faith that led to his sin of betrayal. My point was it was the sin of betrayal Christ said he would suffer for. It is for the various sins Paul lists that the wrath of God is coming on the disobedient. You persist in the assertion that wicked are punished only for unbelief, despite the many Scriptures I gave that prove otherwise - Please answer my question as to your view of the nature of Scripture: Is ALL Scripture inspired of God? Without error in ALL that it asserts?

In Him

Ian

 

Why do you persist in disbelieving scripture, even when it is posted for you to read? Don't you know how mortally dangerous it is to call scripture a lie?

Believe the Word Ransom, it will set you free from disbelief, bitterness and hard heartedness.

 

Harley4Him said:

Don't you know how mortally dangerous it is to call scripture a lie?

I never called Scripture a lie. That is the second time you have borne false witness against me.

Since you are obviously beyond reasoning with and have chosen to play the liar and the fool, I will be glad to ignore you from now on. Have a nice day.

 

Note to moderator: Ransom edited the above post, and removed some of the most offensive language I have seen, certainly at a Christian site, and maybe on all the internet. Can't something be done about this?
________________________

At least he removed it, showing that he thought better of it.

Everyone here needs to be careful to exercise grace. I just warned about this above. There is no need to call someone a liar, or lying devil, or the like. Back off the rhetoric and talk like Christian gentlemen or don't talk at all.

[ February 07, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Ian said,

Ian,
The definition of sins is that they are deeds, in the same manner that good works are deeds. Therefore if good works cannot save, then sins cannot condemn! The scriptures reveal that there is a judgment of deeds before a judgment of unbelievers. The deeds of every human are judged. Believers are not Judged, but then, Unbelievers are judged which is the casting of them into the lake of fire. Thus Judas' sin is not what condemned him, that was a deed, but rather his unbelief that led to the sin is the cause of his condemnation, in the manner of all mankind.

Don't forget, that human's do as they believe. If you believe that you can sin with impunity even though you believe in the sinless one, you are making yourself a liar! But it remains FAITH ALONE that Saves, and LACK OF FAITH that causes spiritual death in the Lake of Fire, the second death.

 

Yelsew said, 'Ian, The definition of sins is that they are deeds, in the same manner that good works are deeds. Therefore if good works cannot save, then sins cannot condemn!'

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Your equation is mistaken. Good works and sins are not what Scripture gives as the basis of eternal life/death. The gift of God and wages of sin are. Hell is the wages the wicked will be paid for all their sins.

'The scriptures reveal that there is a judgment of deeds before a judgment of unbelievers. The deeds of every human are judged.'

Where is that in the Scriptures? I've never heard of it before.

In Him

Ian

 

Ian,

(1) is the judgement that every human being must face, it is the judgment of "deeds" in which, all of man's deeds are tested as if in fire. Good deeds come through the fire in the manner that gold, silver, and precious gemstones survive fire. Bad deeds (sins) are consumed by the fire in the manner of wood, hay, and stubble, leaving only worthless ash.

(2) is the judgment that only those whose names are not found in the book of life are subjected to.

So, whose names are in the book of Life? ALL who BELIEVE (have FAITH) in GOD, His Son, and the Holy Spirit! John 3:16.
So, whose names are not written in the book of life? John 3:18, the unbelievers (LACK FAITH) whose unbelief condemns them.

Those words in John 3 are the words of GOD the SON! Who else would know?

Those words in Revelation 20 are words revealed to the Apostle John while in an "out of body" experience where he was taken up "in spirit" to heaven, as one would know who reads the book of Revelation. Are they to be believed? Well Ian, They scared the devil right out of me! But now they give me calm assurance that I will never face that second death!

 

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Your equation is mistaken. Good works and sins are not what Scripture gives as the basis of eternal life/death. The gift of God and wages of sin are. Hell is the wages the wicked will be paid for all their sins.</font>[/QUOTE]Ian, you completely overlooked the Atonement for sin that Jesus did for the sins of the world, that is, ALL sins in ALL times. If sins are atoned for, there is no death for sins for the sinner, Jesus paid the penalty, which is death, for ALL sins in ALL times. Man is no longer subject to the penalty for sin! Jesus PAID IT ALL! ALL to Him I OWE! He died so that we would not have to die, and so that we can have life eternal simply by placing our FAITH and TRUST in Him. So the Equation for SALVATION is FAITH = SALVATION

NOT OF WORKS (Deeds) lest any man should boast! Both good works and sins are deeds! They are what man does, and they have no bearing on man's salvation, because they will be tested in the judgment of deeds, Revelation 20:14, THEN comes the judgment of the person, Revelation 20:15. That final judgment is based on FAITH ALONE! YOU HAVE IT OR YOU DON"T!

 

Yelsew said, ' REV 20:14,15. Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and(1) every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; and (2) anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.
(1) is the judgement that every human being must face, it is the judgment of "deeds" in which, all of man's deeds are tested as if in fire. Good deeds come through the fire in the manner that gold, silver, and precious gemstones survive fire. Bad deeds (sins) are consumed by the fire in the manner of wood, hay, and stubble, leaving only worthless ash.
(2) is the judgment that only those whose names are not found in the book of life are subjected to.
So, whose names are in the book of Life? ALL who BELIEVE (have FAITH) in GOD, His Son, and the Holy Spirit! John 3:16. So, whose names are not written in the book of life? John 3:18, the unbelievers (LACK FAITH) whose unbelief condemns them. Those words in John 3 are the words of GOD the SON! Who else would know? Those words in Revelation 20 are words revealed to the Apostle John while in an "out of body" experience where he was taken up "in spirit" to heaven, as one would know who reads the book of Revelation. Are they to be believed? Well Ian, They scared the devil right out of me! But now they give me calm assurance that I will never face that second death!

Look at what the text actually says, not what you want it to say. 'And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.' The dead are judged, not their works.

The text clearly speaks of the dead being raised at the last day, being judged according to their works, and all not found in the Book of Life, whether they had small sins or great sins, were cast into the lake of fire. Faith is the essential possession, without it no works are accepted by God. But without it our works earn a wage. Various severity of punishment, as our Lord spoke of in
Matthew 10:15 'Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!'

More later!

In Him

Ian

 

Ian said,

Let's see that scripture in its context.

Well Ian, this certainly does not support your argument! Jesus is placing condemnation upon those cities who do not welcome and hear His messengers. Is this a case where Ian is making scripture say what Ian wants it to?

This is quite relevant to the issue so stick with me on this.

What do scriptures tell us about SALVATION? What specifically is it? What is one saved from, and to?

What do scriptures say it is that saves man (not who but what)? When, in the history of man did that begin? Was it before Christ or after Christ? If before Christ, was it before the Law or after the law? Here's a clue: What was it that God saw in Abraham that caused Him to see Abraham as Righteous?

The point is this: Man is not saved or condemned according to his works or deeds, but rather according to his FAITH! Man's works are judged, but not for Salvation!

The way you are saying it, man is judged according to his works, and not according to his faith.

 

Yelsew said, 'Well Ian, this certainly does not support your argument! Jesus is placing condemnation upon those cities who do not welcome and hear His messengers. Is this a case where Ian is making scripture say what Ian wants it to? This is quite relevant to the issue so stick with me on this. What do scriptures tell us about SALVATION? What specifically is it? What is one saved from, and to? What do scriptures say it is that saves man (not who but what)? When, in the history of man did that begin? Was it before Christ or after Christ? If before Christ, was it before the Law or after the law? Here's a clue: What was it that God saw in Abraham that caused Him to see Abraham as Righteous? The point is this: Man is not saved or condemned according to his works or deeds, but rather according to his FAITH! Man's works are judged, but not for Salvation! The way you are saying it, man is judged according to his works, and not according to his faith.'

The Mt. text was used to show degrees of severity of punishment. My main text was from Rev.20:12, 'And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.' This you ignored, for it flatly contradicts your assertion that sinners are not punished for their sins.

What do scriptures tell us about SALVATION? What specifically is it? What is one saved from, and to?

Salvation is by Grace, though faith.Eph.2:8. By the atonement made by Christ for His sheep.Jn.10:15. Saved from the wrath to come.1Thess.1:10. Saved to serve God in the kingdom of His Son and to live with Him forever.Col.1:13;Rev.22:3-5.

What do scriptures say it is that saves man (not who but what)?

Grace, through faith. Eph.2:8.


When, in the history of man did that begin? Was it before Christ or after Christ? If before Christ, was it before the Law or after the law? Here's a clue: What was it that God saw in Abraham that caused Him to see Abraham as Righteous?

From the very beginning: the promise of One who would crush Satan's head. By Faith Abel offerred his sacrifice to God.

The point is this: Man is not saved or condemned according to his works or deeds, but rather according to his FAITH!

Half right. Man is not saved by his works. But he is condemned by them. As I pointed out previously, the gift is NOT like the offense, Rom.5:15,16. The WAGES of SIN is death. The GIFT is eternal life.

Man's works are judged, but not for Salvation! The way you are saying it, man is judged according to his works, and not according to his faith.

The text in Rev.20 proves it is the men who are judged, not the works. The judgement of works you are thinking of is that of believers, for rewards in heaven. 1 Corinthians 3:12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

You are making the error of restricting the grounds of eternal punishment to unbelief, whereas Scripture shows that along with unbelief are the various specific sins such as murder, sexual immorality, pride, etc. This brings you back to a problem for universal atonement- if Christ paid for everymans's sins, why will they be punished for them? Any other solutions?

In Him

Ian

 

Yelsew said,

The Mt. text was used to show degrees of severity of punishment. My main text was from Rev.20:12, 'And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.' This you ignored, for it flatly contradicts your assertion that sinners are not punished for their sins.</font>[/QUOTE]No Ian, I have not ignored it Revelation 20:12 at all, But I do consider it in light of the other scriptures dealing with Salvation.

Salvation is by Grace, though faith.Eph.2:8.</font>[/QUOTE]Why yes! It is while grace prevails that we are saved through our FAITH. It is only while God's grace is present that salvation is possible for mankind.

Why yes it is for Christ's sheep, that the Christ died. that is the reason for atonement, but atonement is not what saves! Evenso, if that was the whole story, Atonement would have ended in the first century! But even today all the sins of the world are atoned for by the Once-for-All act of God the Son, so that more and more people can become the Christ's sheep through their FAITH. In fact the whole world of 6 billion living humans today could be saved if they would all come to FAITH in the Christ.

That's a good reason for salvation, but that does not answer the questions.

Another good reason for Salvation but not the answer to the questions. It seems you are really skirting the issues. So, let's hear from the SON OF GOD! "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH ON HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life. Whoever believes IS NOT JUDGED (condemned), but whoever does not believe, IS JUDGED BY HIS/HER OWN DISBELIEF!

Grace, through faith. Eph.2:8.</font>[/QUOTE]I am convinced with everything in me that you are misreading Ephesians 2:8. Surely you believe that the verse says faith is the gift of God. Well there are many other scriptures that contradict that by declaring salvation to be the Gift of God to those who love Him in FAITH. God saves those who love him, and such love is demonstrated in Faith in an unseen God.

From the very beginning: the promise of One who would crush Satan's head. By Faith Abel offerred his sacrifice to God.</font>[/QUOTE]Good answer, it is FAITH that Saves!

Half right. Man is not saved by his works. But he is condemned by them. As I pointed out previously, the gift is NOT like the offense, Rom.5:15,16. The WAGES of SIN is death. The GIFT is eternal life.</font>[/QUOTE]Context Ian, Context!

The text in Rev.20 proves it is the men who are judged, not the works. The judgement of works you are thinking of is that of believers, for rewards in heaven. 1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.</font>[/QUOTE]That's fine as far as you went, but once again the Context is your downfall. See verse 15 for what it said about man. This text and Revelation 20 are revealing the same judgment! Man's deeds will not be tested by fire separate from the final judgement! but the man's deeds are not what do him in, it is his faith!

The "test by fire" is the revealing of our natural life. What did we do while we lived under God's grace? That which we did that is "Good in God's eyes" comes through the fire in the manner of gold, silver, and precious gemstones; that which is bad is consumed by the fire leaving ashes in the manner of wood, hay and stubble.

It is the person who sins those sins and does not confess, repent and receive forgiveness and cleansing from them that will also not have faith in God! Those who have committed those sins, but who have confessed them and repented from them do so through faith in God! Else who do they confess to, and who does the forgiving and cleansing?

Not all who have murdered are excluded from heaven, not all who have lived in sexual immorality and pride are excluded from heaven, only those who lack faith are excluded. I expect to see King David in Heaven, yet he killed another man so that he could have the man's wife. Get the point? IT IS FAITH ALONE that God looks for in man! It is not faith plus something else! Faith is not a possibility for man outside of God's grace! So, "while God's grace prevails we are saved through our FAITH, and not of ourselves, salvation is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast!

 

Yelsew said, It is the person who sins those sins and does not confess, repent and receive forgiveness and cleansing from them that will also not have faith in God! Those who have committed those sins, but who have confessed them and repented from them do so through faith in God! Else who do they confess to, and who does the forgiving and cleansing?
Not all who have murdered are excluded from heaven, not all who have lived in sexual immorality and pride are excluded from heaven, only those who lack faith are excluded. I expect to see King David in Heaven, yet he killed another man so that he could have the man's wife. Get the point? IT IS FAITH ALONE that God looks for in man! It is not faith plus something else! Faith is not a possibility for man outside of God's grace!

Brother Yelsew, I'm getting dizzy running round in circles after you! You keep returning to the believer's sins being atoned for, as if I disagreed on that.

No, the point at issue is the sins of those who die in unbelief - will they be punished for those sins as well as the sin of unbelief. The Scriptures I gave prove they do, but all you do is return to pointing out that believers don't answer for their own sins.

Leave the believers out of it. Answer the Scriptures that speak of unbelievers being judged according to their works.

In Him

Ian

 

The Atonement provided by GOD the SON is for ALL SINS, in ALL TIMES, without regard to whether or not even one man believes! Even so, it is only the one who does believe that receives everlasting life. Eternal life was not possible while the penalty for sin remained against man. The Atonement that Jesus provided, removed that penalty from man so that man can have eternal life.

Unbelievers are judged for deeds (works and sins) , but not unto life or the second death. Life and death are determined by FAITH or the LACK Thereof.

 

Yelsew said, Unbelievers are judged for deeds (works and sins) , but not unto life or the second death. Life and death are determined by FAITH or the LACK Thereof.

So you agree they are judged for their sins; what punishment do they receive, if not eternal - the second death?

In Him

Ian

 

Unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire, while believers are not! What conclusion do you draw from that?

Unbelievers are not given eternal life, while believers are! What conclusion do you draw from that?

The sins of all mankind for all times are atoned for! What conclusion do you draw from that?