Would You Fellowship?

No, Oneness saints believe that Jesus was the Son/Flesh that the Father/Spirit lived in while He was on Earth to die for the sins of humanity.

MEE

 

Bob, I don't think their statement on the Triune God says there are 3 real persons. They use the word "manifest" which does not make it clearly Trinitarian.

I've actually studied this some and wrote a brief article on it. I visited the Oneness sites that had statements of faith (many don't; I am always suspicious of a church that does not post a Statement of Faith) and the use of the word "manifest" is very common. I would never use that word in a statement of faith because of this.

They believe that God "manifests" in 3 forms at various times. Some Oneness followers believe God can do this simultaneously (but it is still one God and not 3 Persons in One) and some that He does it consecutively.

A superb article on this is an article on Philips, Craig, and Dean (I just them mentioned on another BB forum) who are all Oneness pastors yet sing in evangelical churches because most Christians do not know they are Oneness (and sadly, some don't care).

Continued.....(had to break off to post)

 

(Continued from previous post...this is part of the article mentioned there)

to be continued yet again....

 

1. Several doctrinal points I disagree with--
The Bible as the inspired, infallible Word of God with the addendum of applying this to the original autographs. We don't have the original autographs, so we don't have an infallible Bible. No definition of what "inspired" means here. Healing is not necessarily deliverance from Satan.

2. I don't "withold fellowship" from anyone. Unless there is some underlying meaning of this term, I can't see how people saved by God's grace and filled with his love can turn their back on people who may be misled or not believers at all.

 

Part 3 (continued), rest of quote from article and maybe rest of post...

still to be contined....

 

Part 4!


Dan Dean's Heartland Church has this under "What We Believe" (this is just an excerpt)

They use "revealed as" instead of "manifest." Both terms are commonly used in Oneness statements.

Randy Phillips' church, Promiseland, is more blatantly Oneness:

Being "both" Father, Son, and HS is not even correct grammar! But the most serious problem is the theology.

Mercury, someone can be saved without understanding the Trinity, but not understanding at salvation is one thing; denying the Trinity is another. Oneness denies the Trinity.

 

No, Oneness saints believe that Jesus was the Son/Flesh that the Father/Spirit lived in while He was on Earth to die for the sins of humanity.

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the clarification, MEE. Jesus is the "flesh" of the Father, right?

I am not sure you know what we mean by "fellowship." We don't mean just talking and hanging out. This is in context of "fellowshipping in Christ" as with other believers. I do not fellowship with Mormons, for example. That means I would not worship with them in their church or unite with them as fellow Christians, because they are not fellow Christians.

The basic premise of evangelical fellowshipping is who is being recognized as a believer according to the Bible.

 

I agree. By contrast, the Athanasian Creed says, "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity." It does not make the distinction you have made. For this reason, I cannot agree with the creed and find it unbiblical.

 

Mercury,

You are still adding to the Athanasian Creed something that is not there. The saving faith of the Holy Trinity is given by the Holy Spirit and does not depend on human reason or understanding. However, when men think of the Holy Trinity in any other way than the way described by the Athanasian Creed (e.g., the bogus creed presented at the outset of this thread), they have denied the Christ, the Lord that bought them. They are worshipping an idol and they can not be saved.

[ August 29, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

No, I don't believe that. If the Holy Spirit were in the business of conveying perfect understanding of doctrine or perfect understanding of the nature of God, then we would not have all the Christian denominations we have today. In general, people gain a correct understanding of the Trinity by the teachings of their church or by studying the issue directly. While the Holy Spirit may intervene and directly give this understanding to some, that is definitely not an absolute rule.

 

Mercury,

You have added to my statement something that is not there just as you added something to Athanasian Creed that is not there.

No man can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Saving faith given by the Holy Spirit is not a matter of perfect understanding of doctrine or of the nature of God. The Holy Spirit creates saving faith through the Word of God not perfect understanding.

As the Athanasian Creed states, those who reject the Word of God and worship an idol do not have the saving faith. They have faith in an idol.

 

I did expand on what you said to explain why I can't agree with your statement, but I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Sorry if it came across that way.

My disagreement is with the Athanasian Creed. After outlining a number of specifics, it says "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity" (emphasis mine). The creed quite directly makes proper understanding of the Trinity a requirement of salvation. I do not believe that is true. There are many Christians who do not think of the Trinity that way simply because they've never delved into the issue that deeply. I'm pretty sure my grandmother would have used some incorrect terminology in describing the Trinity, but she did not lose her faith because of that. I do not believe people are lost solely because of their ignorance on this subject, important though it may be.

If that was indeed what the Athanasian Creed stated, I would have no problem with it. Instead, it says what I've quoted above. That's why I disagree with it.

 

Mercury,

I have no trouble confessing The Athanasian Creed because I don't read things into it that are not there. A creed is a statement of biblical truth in opposition to those who would deny that biblical truth. The Athanasian Creed presents the biblical truth of the Holy Trinity and then says "He therefore that will be saved" must agree with that biblical truth. Paul says the same thing, "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

The world is full of people who deny the biblical truth of the Holy Trinity. These people think they are going to heaven (e.g., Moslems, JWs, Mormons, Oneness, etc.). The Athananasian Creed tells these people not to delude themself. Their ticket to hell is punched. To go to heaven, they must stop worshipping idols and put their trust in the one true God, "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity".

[ August 30, 2004, 05:05 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]