Would you leave

If you think that was belittling, then you haven't seen belittling. I'm simply engaging in debate. This is a debate forum. If you can't deal with it, no one is forcing you to post here. Oh, wait...maybe I'll say if you are truly a Christian then you have to post here. If I say that then you will have to post!

 

See, we can trace our heritage back before Constantine and the Catholic Church. If you gave into the fear tactics and not allow yourself to be martyred your salvation is in question. (even though I just started this new baptist group today).

 

Are you serious, or is this a joke? If serious, this is pure works based salvation!

edited...I just saw your post a few minutes before mine.

 

What do you think?

BTW its not works based. You don't have to do anything just be willing to allow yourself to be martyred. Its like allowing God's will to be done.

I need to find the paperwork to submit to the government to make it an acknowledge religion in the US. Even though we've been around since Dioclesian (eventhough I came up with the Idea today).

 

Russia, during the height of the Communist regime.
Christians were quietly worshipping in a room, when these two Russian soldiers barged in and threatened to shoot all who will stand with Christ and gave permission to all who want to leave to go.
After the others left, they revealed themselves to be Christians and said they only wanted to make sure there were no traitors and potential spies in the room.

First heard this in the 70's, and then there have been variations from then on, even a Filipino version.

Some may think it ridiculous, but worse and fatal cases have already happened to other brethren.

 

You know, I've always believed that it is a little foolish to give in to people like this. I remember about 20 years ago where a gunman came into a McDonalds to rob it. He made four employees go down into the basement and tied them up, then shot each one of them in the head.

So, I feel that if you put up a fight at least you have a chance. I like to believe I would watch the gunmen carefully and jump the first one that looked away.

My younger brother and a friend were robbed once, and although it was no laughing matter at the time, we laugh about it now. He was around 15 and walking home from the movies with a friend. A car pulled over in front of them and they thought they were being offered a ride, and so they ran up to the car. Four young men in their 20's jumped out and put guns to their heads. My brother said he was terrified. They asked for money but neither my brother or his friend had any. My brother thought this would anger them, and so offered them a bag of candy they had purchased at the movies.

Then they made my brother and his friend lie face down on the ground with a gun to the back of their heads. My brother said he was fully expecting to die and waiting for a big flash. The men were threatening to kill them. Then they allowed the other boy to get up and said, "Run w---e boy, run!" He did, but my brother became very frightened because they did not allow him to get up. Then they told him to get up and run.

The part that has always made us laugh is that his friend had about a one block lead on him running back to the theater, but my brother ran so fast he got there first. :tongue3:

When they got to the theater the police were called and a description was given to the police. They pulled the car over later that night, and the evidence that did the robbers in was that they still had the bag of candy that my brother gave them.

I know that was off subject, but I realize it is difficult to be brave and resist when someone is actually holding a gun to your head.

I dunno, I think everybody should kneel and start praying, I think that would be a very shocking experience to the gunmen. I heard once a man was going to rape a young girl, she started praying out loud and the man ran away.

 

If so, you could add me to that list who think it is ridiculous. IMO, it shows the ignorance of those who would put their brothers to the test and judge them on such pretenses. Not to mention, that this foolishness is causing risk and danger which they may have just put on their own life in through their stupidity, because of some who would not play by their rules, give no credit whatsoever to the their test, and will not willingly allow other brothers to accept this false and forced pretense of martyrism under such intimidation without a fight.

 

Yeah I have, let me know if you stumble across it:smilewinkgrin:

 

The story, itself, might have been a real occurrence or a fiction.... we don't know until a source is found for certain.

However, in all of the answers..... there's a lot of presumption once we venture past that of faith: Faith is putting ourself in the hands of God and committing to Him the outcome and following as He leads.

To venture beyond this as to determine now, what we would do then...... is all built upon presumption:
We're assumming we still have arms.
We're assumming these are terrorist or criminals.
We're assumming that freedom to worship is still supported by law and by the community.
We're assumming that we are at peace in the practice of our faith every day:

The what if's are enormous:
What if we were facing death everyday in persecution for the practice of our faith?
Would we merely remove ourselves and our children from the church?
Would we dare pray before our children and read them the Word of God?
Would we dare go to church.... knowing it could be a death sentence if found out?

The issue is a good one if used to examine our faith and committment to the Lord and to draw us closer to Him and recognize our own weakness..... and ask His help to strengthen and prepare us for whatever our future may hold... and place that future in His hands.

The issue is bad if it sets us up for a predetermined response of our own will which will not give us the freedom to yield to the move of the spirit.
We're assumming many things, and its all hypothetical to us.....

 

Ok, I have been thinking hard. I don't know what I would do if presented with such a situation. Taking the situation as presented I think that the correct thing for me to do is stay. To leave would be to give into their demand. If they want to shoot me then that is their decision. May God give me grace to do the right thing.

If I had small children there I think I would ask that they be released. They couldn't be expected to make such a decision.

One other thing, how do I know that they aren't liars. Maybe if I start to walk out of the door they shoot me in the back.

A.F.

 

You are giving in to their demand if you stay as well. Personally, I'd rather give in the demand and live than give in and die.

BTW, my perspective comes from not having a viable method to protect myself. If I'm faced with several armed gunmen and I am unarmed myself don't believe I could take them. I'm not Rambo. If, however, I had a gun and a place to take cover whilst I fired, we would be talking a different story.

 

If I had children I would have them and my wife leave. The big surprise would be for the gunmen. In just matter of moments if not seconds (as soon as the women and children are clear) I can think of several in my church that would deliver the surprise of outgunning the gunmen without having to leave at all. I would pray for their family's loss tho.

 

I would say that this is a ludicrous scenario but we have read of something similar happening in our children several times in the last few years.

 

Forgive me, but I am just an ape who learned to speak a little English and wear civilized clothes.
Will you be so kind as to explain who you are talking about, why you seem upset, and what is it you really mean ?
Are you talking about the Russian soldiers who pretended to be anti-Christians so they can drive out potential spies and worship with brethren ?
Are you talking about me calling you or insinuating that you are ridiculous ?
On top of my being just an ape, I have diabetes and the extra insulin in my system kind of clouds my comprehension.

 

Matt. 10:32-33 "Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. (33)But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

A professor at seminary told this eyewitness story to our class. I"ll retell it as best as I can remember.

He was at a church in Texas (Wedgewood?) some years ago when a man came in with a gun and began shooting. Everyone took cover under the pews.

As the man reloaded, a member stood up and told him, "I know what you need, you need to know Jesus Christ as your Savior".

The man flew into a rage, and began cursing and then screaming unintelligibly. Once the gun was reloaded, he committed suicide without firing another shot at the people present.

I always find it amazing that there are Christians who proudly boast of their intentions of pulling their guns and shooting it out with the bad guys should they get the chance.

That kind of thinking is contrary to the teachings and commands of Jesus Christ, and is no different than the response of the godless heathen.

peace to youraying:

 

Very well said, I also am amazed at some of the things I read on this site.

 

Sorry, not everyone lives up to your standards, Brother...

 

Not sure why you would think I’m upset, but not all. At least not when I responded to your post, although, Canadyjd is pressing it, and was certainly out of line labeling people who disagree with his warped view of surrendering to be martyrs as godless heathens. But I just consider the source and his inability to have fun with this hypothetical and him making this stab at others here has nothing to do with you. Evidently, he just doesn’t have much respect for 1 Titus 5:8, or the methods of the man after God’s own heart that prayed for God to help him destroy his enemies; starting with Goliath. Guess he would rather take today's all too typical passive Christian role and just roll over on his back like a whipped pup, tuck his tail between his legs and wet himself rather than stand up and give his life to save a brother from such evil. To each his own I guess.

Yes, I interpreted that you said some would see the Russian’s antics as ridiculous and I said you could add me to that list.

Nope, didn’t think that at all.

Or it might be my writings; my brain jumps around a lot, often switching tracts on thoughts, and so I try to get out what I’m thinking anyway by putting it down quickly, use a few commas and usually go back and try to fix my posts so they are somewhat comprehensible, but it doesn’t always work.

BTW, ape man, been meaning to ask you; you were all into pumping dumbbells a while back after some surgery, still at it?

 

Well, Benjamin, it's the BB and everybody's got his opinion here. That's why it is so addicting. Thanks for clearing that one up. Your being upset I mean.

Well, the reason I don't see that as ridiculous, and I don't mind if you do, is because, for all the things many say about America becoming a police state, most Americans have never known how it is to live in a police state.
If that story were true (and I doubt it is considering how some preachers wouldn't think twice of inventing a story to further embellish their points) I certainly understand how they would put their uniforms to an advantage to make sure they don't get tattle-taled on themselves.
But that story has many holes to it, if one thinks about it, which is why I don't think it is true.

Okay.

I know what you're saying.
Happens a lot to me too.
I sometimes forget I'm already a human being who should be speaking in human tongues and insert some ugh ugh's disguised as English into my sentences that either makes the reader angry or confused.
Even at work.
The other day I was walking this lady through her log in and she suddenly goes, "I don't understand what you're saying. I think I will hang up and call again and try to get somebody I can understand. Goodbye". She hung up and left me sitting there wondering what the ugh ugh I said.

Still at it. Benjamin, still at it.
Now I'm trying to get my core muscles in line.
Lost 40 lbs already, but gained back 15.
Ate too many bananas.
Walked on the ground too much instead of swinging in the trees exercising my body.

God bless and take care.

 

I'm with MP here----I'm not gonna stand around and let someone shoot my kids nor myself nor my wife---I'm just not gonna do it