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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, Jun 11, 2013.
Wouldn't open theism be right IF God allowed for chance?
I don't know how others would explain it, but I believe God has perfect foreknowledge. God knows exactly what will happen in any given situation, including chance.
Does that mean that whatever God knows will absolutely happen? YES.
Does that men that whatever God knows is determined to happen? NO.
If I flip a coin ten times, and it comes up heads three times, and tails seven times, God already knew that. But God did not determine it, it actually happened according to chance.
Now, of course I do not believe everything happens by chance, many things are directly determined and purposed by God and will happen exactly as he planned.
But some things are left to chance.
What verses support that notion though?
Do you think God 'chanced" Jesus might not have stayed sinless, might have failed His mission to be messiah then?
No...read up on Molinism. That is all.
winman in the past you've talked boastfully of how Jacob beat God in his wrestling with Him.
In spite of your complete misunderstanding of this text as well as an innumerous amount of other Biblical texts you misunderstand, misapply and misinterpret, could you have done the same?
As for the OP, open theism is heresy.
Your God is far too small and confused for me. Mine knows what will happen 100% of the time because He is in control 100% of the time.
There are quite a few scriptures that mention chance, Jesus himself spoke of chance.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
If chance does not exist, then why would Jesus speak of it? Do you believe Jesus said nonsensical things?
As for your second question, where did you get these ideas? I never said such things. Do you think that putting words into other people's mouths is a convincing argument? I assure you it isn't. You must believe the people that read these posts very stupid.
Winman did you get saved on purpose or by chance ?
Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
I do not believe it was by chance.
I did not say that EVERYTHING happens by chance, but some things do happen by chance unless you believe Jesus Christ was a liar, because Jesus himself said some things happen by chance.
So, do you believe Jesus was lying in Luke 10:31?
God spoke of chance;
Deu 22:6 If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the young:
Solomon also said that some things happen by chance.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
If chance does not exist, I do not see why God would speak of chance as though it does exist. Would God say something that is misleading?
Would God himself attack his own sovereignty? Doesn't make much sense if you ask me.
I suspect that everything was "reverse engineered".
We are currently in a temporary "artificial environment" outside of the real "reality"... a Matrix, if you will.
That is a begging the question fallacy.
I believe God is in control of everything. However, it seems to me that the verses that Winman presents, especially Luke 10:31, should be directly addressed by some who agree with me who have much better knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew than I do, instead of sharp responses that say nothing more than you "misunderstand and misapply." Answering the context of the verses Winman gives would be much more constructive and lend to understanding on both sides. That goes for Deu 22:6 and Eccl 9:11 also.
Winman always gives verses to back up his beliefs. Again, I would greatly appreciate someone addressing those verses that has a better understanding of them than me.
This is a strawman. Winman did not say that God was not in control 100% of the time.
Ok, fair enough. So for those of you who allow for "chance" where does "chance" end and God's will begin, or vice versa?
'And by chance' is an idiom, figure of speech or an expression. Luke 10:31 is not a verse that supports that things happen by accident, out of the control of God, nor does it support that God doesn't have omniscience. But this is yet another example of winman proof-texting which yet again doesn't support his straw man. Winman has trouble getting past what things say and to what they mean. The ninety and nine sheep illustration he uses for instance, and there are many others as well.
winman sure does have verses SN, and he uses them to back up his beliefs, but unfortunately most of his beliefs are used by taking passages out of context, not looking at them in light of the whole counsel of God, using them to contradict other passages and dogmas (omniscience, original sin, the true state of the lost in his denying the world application of Romans 3, his belief in conditional election that God chooses because we are good, do good &c). These things are done along with many other hermeneutical failures on his part. He is in serious theological error. He's been shown this by many on BB.
We all know of many groups who always use Scripture to back up their belief system and they are almost always used out of context and are therefore dissident teachings. Whether it is a JW, Mormon, SDA or Baptist who does these things, each of them are just as wrong and each are in as much error as the other, no matter what their label happens to be.
God meets us where we are and uses the language thereof.
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Does the sun actually rise?
Did God deceive us when in His creation the sun moon and stars appear to move across the sky but in actuality that appearance is caused by the rotation of the earth.
Why did God not tell us that fact?
RE: Luke 10:31
Young's Literal Translation - Luke 10:31 And by a coincidence a certain priest was going down in that way, and having seen him, he passed over on the opposite side.
In other words this translation is from the point of view that this was not chance but two events which coincided in time and place.
Other translations use words like "and it happened that a certain priest"
Liddel Scott, UBS, Louw-Nida and Friberg lexicons agree that "to coincide" is a legitimate translation of the original language word sugkuria.
But I would still agree with winman and the KJV with the word "chance" because its from OUR point of view - just like the sun "rising" is from our point of view.
If God spoke everything from His point of view how much of it would we understand I wonder?
When we come down to where "the rubber meets the road" we often have to choose from the alternatives and even then we may still get it wrong.
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Very good synopsis. Thanks!
Do you believe God directly determines who wins the latest horse race? Does God directly intervene to determine the outcome when you flip a coin? Does God determine by direct action who wins the football game?
God is in control because he made the rules. He created the laws of physics, He determined the depth of the sea, He set the height from the ground to outer space. So much of what happens is because He set it all in motion. God does directly intervene in other areas such as His actions with regards to His word, salvation etc.
Now you may not like the word "chance" but do not turn it into something it is not.
God is sovereign even when He does not directly intervene.