Wrong Renderings In The A.V.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Nov 12, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    I bought a book about two weeks ago.It's called :Bible History :Old Testament by Alfred Edersheim (1825-1889).His heritage was Jewish but he was converted to Christ while a young man and became a Presbyterian minister.Later he was a clergyman in the CoE.

    He was quite the Old Testament scholar.I looked at all the footnotes and culled some of them for this thread.I will deal with a fraction of the ones in which he indicated that the Authorized Version (hereafter A.V.) was mistaken.I am sorry that the order is mixed-up.I'll give a bit of his remarks at times and quote from the TNIV,Net and occasinally the NLTse among other translations.

    Page 377 Judges 11:40.The A.V. has "lament".It's an 'incorrect rendering'.

    TNIV and Net Bible :commemorate

    Page 386 Judges 15:19.The A.V. has "God clave the hollow place which is Lehi."

    TNIV : Then God opened up the hollow place in Lehi.
    Net Bibe : So God split open the basin at Lehi.

    Page 461,1 Samuel 15:12.A.V. :"He set him up a place."

    TNIV and NLTse : set up a monument
    NET : setting up a monument

    Page 469, 1 Sam. 17:6.A.V."target".

    TNIV,NET and NLTse :javelin

    Page 479, 1 Sam. 19:20.A.V.:"Samuel standing as appointed over them"

    TNIV :Samuel standing there as their leader
    NASBU : Samuel standing and presiding over them
    Net : leader

    Page 514, 2 Sam. 2:23.A.V.:"under the fifth rib"

    TNIV,NLTse and ESV : stomach
    Net :abdomen
    NASBU : belly

    Page 525 :In the A.V. by a copyist mistake the first two clauses of 2 Samuel 6:3 are repeated in verse 4.

    Page 526, 2 Sam.6:13.Eldersheim said:"The text uses the singular,and not as our in our Authorised Version,the plural.(KJV :"fatlings")

    TNIV and NLTse: a fattened calf
    Net : a fatling calf

    Page 528,2 Sam. 6:19.A.V. :"flagon of wine".

    TNIV and NLTse: a cake of raisins
    Net : a raisin cake

    Page 594,2 Chron. 2:13.According to Eldersheim the A.V. is "entirely misleading".A.V.:"Hu-ram my father's"

    TNIV and NLTse: Huram-Abi
    Net :Huran Abi

    The Net note says that Huram Abi means :Huran [is]my father.

    Page 615,1 Kings 10:28.Eldersheim says this is a "mistranslation".A.V.:"lined yarn".

    TNIV and Net: purchased them from Que

    ___________________________________________________________

    To be continued.
     
  2. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    Continuing with texts Eldersheim said were faulty in the KJV(A.V.)

    Page 154,Lev.17:7."Erroneously rendered in our A.V. 'devils'."

    TNIV,NLTse : goat idols
    Net :goat demons

    Page 254,All the Psalms of the sons of Korah."Wrongly translated in the A.V. for the sons of Korah.Psalms 42,44-49,85,87 and 88.

    TNIV has for in each case.

    Page 315,Joshua 8:14.A.V.:"a time appointed".

    TNIV : at a certain place
    Net : at the meeting place

    Page 633,2 Chron. 11:23.A.V."he desired many wives".

    TNIV : took many wives for them
    Net : acquired many wives for them
    NLTse : found many wives for them

    Note :Rehoboam did this for his many sons.

    Page 1 Kings 12:31.A.V. :"the lowest of the people."

    TNIV :from all sorts of people
    Net :people who were not Levites
    NLTse : from the common people
     
  3. Steven2006

    Steven2006
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you enjoy that book you should look into getting his other books, they are equally as good.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    Continuing...

    Page 664,1 Kings 16:33.A.V.:"And Ahab made a grove."

    TNIV,NLTse,Net and ESV : made an Asherah pole

    Page 665,2 Chron. 17:13.A.V. :"much business".

    TNIV,NASBU and ESV : large supplies
    Net :many supplies
    NLTse : numerous supplies

    Page 696,1 Kings 19:4.A.V. :"juniper tree".

    TNIV : broom bush

    NLTse and ESV : broom tree

    Net :shrub

    Page 706,1 Kings 20:14.A.V. :"order the battle"

    TNIV : And who will start the battle?

    Net : Who will launch the attack?

    ESV :begin the battle

    Page 710,1 Kings 20:38.A.V.:"disguised himself with ashes upon his face".

    TNIV : disguised himself with his headband down over his eyes.

    Net : disguised himself by putting a bandage down over his eyes

    ESV : disguised himself with a bandage over his eyes

    NLTse : placed a bandage over his eyes to disguise himself

    Page 728,1 Kings 22:38.A.V. :"and they washed his armour".

    TNIV,NLTse : the prostitues bathed

    Net : the harlots bathed

    NASBU : and the harlots bathed themselves

    Page 730,2 Chron.20:34.A.V. :"who is mentioned".

    TNIV,NLTse and ESV : which are recorded

    NASBU : which is recorded

    Page 785,2 Kings 5:24.A.V. :"tower"

    TNIV,Net,NASBU and ESV : hill

    Page 821,A.V. :"kinsfolks"

    TNIV,Net and ESV: close friends

    NLTse : personal friends

    NASBU : acquaintances
     
  5. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not sure that all the above necessarily qualify as "wrong" renderings.

    Some probably are poor renderings; some are merely "dated" due to a passing of nearly 400 years; some are likely the result of a questionable textual basis, due to the copies available to the translators; some are likely due merely to the preferences of the translation company; and some are merely likely brought forth from previous English editions.

    Point is, there is no such thing as any "perfect" translation, or even "best in every instance" of any version in every word found there.

    One does not have to have (or even suspect or find) any nefarious motives, in order that a 'better' rendering of a word or phrase may not be found elsewhere, at some times.

    I have personally seen a couple of instances where a translation I would not generally recommend, namely the Message, due to the fact that I think the "translation philosophy" is less than ideal, actually gives a better rendering than do some versions I would usually generally recommend.

    I would agree with another that one can usually profit from the works of Dr. Alfred Edersheim, especially by reading The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah.

    Ed
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    I got this one from a secular bookstore.It has two more by him.In time I'll get the others.Eldersheim is proving to be quite informative.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    All true.

    I don't know how you arrived at the notion that I have attributed "nefarious motives" to the KJV revisors.That was a completely unwarranted idea of yours.

    Agreed.I even have some threads devoted to such a thing.

    Yes.As I told Steve,I'll be getting more of his works eventually.
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,970
    Likes Received:
    128
    "Under the Fifth Rib" = the Hebrew word, ho-mesh

    I fifth
    Genesis 47:26,

    II belly
    2 Samuel 2:23 AV
    2 Samuel 3:27 AV
    2 Samuel 4:6 AV
    2 Samuel 20:10 AV

    In the LXX, the word is translated as ψόαν meaning the muscles of the pelvis or loins.

    …and Abenner smites him with the hinder end of the spear on the loins…
    II Kings 2:23 LXX [= 2 Samuel 2:23 English versions]


    Years ago I worked in a busy cardiac catheterization lab. On one occasion we had to perform an emergency procedure on a man who had attempted suicide by stabbing himself with a knife in the chest.
    At some point between the stabbing and getting to the hospital, the knife was removed. We needed to assess whether the knife caused any life-threatening damage to the heart or its surrounding vessels.
    The procedure is generally quick and simple but the patient was aggressively uncooperative, making the study long and arduous. We finally determined that the knife entered probably the only spot in his left chest where it could have missed any important blood vessel. He was one lucky dude.

    But the yelling, cursing and contrary nature of the patient left the physician and staff frazzled. After unsuccessfully attempting to explain the results to the patent, the doctor stretched out his hand and pointed to a spot between the fifth and sixth rib on the left side and bellowed, “Next time, here!”


    2823 I. (ḥō∙měš): noun [masculine]; ≡ Strong’s 2569; Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament 686bLouw-Nida Greek-English Lexicon 60.62-60.66 fifth, i.e., one-fifth 20% part of something (Ge 47:26)

    2824 II. (ḥō∙měš): n.masc.; ≡ Str 2570; TWOT 687a—LN 8.67 stomach, belly, i.e., the part of the body between the lowest ribs and the waist, where most of the vital organ reside, focusing on the outer protuberance (2Sa 2:23; 3:27; 4:6; 20:10)

    James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Hebrew

    Also see:
    Holladay’s, A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (109).
    Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (290).

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Nov 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2008
  9. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328


    In my KJV those last four references of yours have "under the fifth rib"-- not "belly".



    Quite the story Rob!Your last two sentences are very pointed.
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    Attention EdEdwards.Attention please.

    My KJV does not have the wording for the following references:

    1 Sam.1:20 :"lent"

    1 Sam.17:18 :"take a pledge of them"

    2 Sam. 6:5 :"cypress wood"

    Ps.42:7 :"gutters"

    What editions contain these variant wordings?
     
  11. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=51550
     
  12. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    You did not attribute '"nefarious motives" to the KJV revisers', nor did I, actually. In fact, I was not even considering anything like that, when I typed that, at all.

    I was referring to anyone in general, who happened to come up with a different rendering, in any version.

    The point I was attempting to make is that there can be a difference of opinion, or even preference, without some 'hidden agenda' in the same manner as there can be a difference of preference intending to support some 'hidden agenda.'

    You, yourself, have mentioned a few cases, in the past, where one preferred one thing, and another preferred another. Any marginal reading, such as are found in the 1611 KJV, is likely a good example of a 'non-agenda' variation.

    Best case in point I know of for the latter is the NWT rendering of John 1:1, which reading is, IMO, entirely 'grounded' in a false teaching.

    Ed
     
  13. Salamander

    Salamander
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    One "laments" certain periods of time annually. Although commemorate would suffice, it doesn't carry the full understanding of the verse and the lamenting of her being of age and remaining childless due to her vow of virginity.

    "Commemorate" carries a modern understanding applicable to young women who have chosen chastity verses being a harlot, this was NOT the case of Judges 11.

    The A.V states, "But God clave an hollow place that [was] in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which [is] in Lehi unto this day."

    Better check your references.

    Gee, and I never knew a monument was in a place!:laugh:
    [ compliments of m-w.com]
    place:1 a: physical environment : space b: a way for admission or transit c: physical surroundings : atmosphere2 a: an indefinite region or expanse <all over the place> b: a building or locality used for a special purpose

    monument:3 a (1): a lasting evidence, reminder, or example of someone or something notable or great (2): a distinguished person b: a memorial stone or a building erected in remembrance of a person or event


    One of Saul's biggest failures was he didn't give God the glory He alone deserves.

    Actually, "place" shows the purpose of Saul's to have a set place for himself to be reverenced.

    Although monument would fit, a monument is usually NOT set up by onesself, but by others to give regard to that person for some great acheivement or something.

    "Monument" isn't the best word here and "place' gives the correct reading.

    Yep, I can just see a warrior with a javelin between his shoudlers:laugh:

    Again, thre Superiority of the A.V.! Samuel was APPOINTED by the Lord to be over the other prophets.

    , 2 Sam. 2:23.A.V.:"under the fifth rib"

    TNIV,NLTse and ESV : stomach
    Net :abdomen
    NASBU : belly[/quote] Um, he was stabbed in the heart indicating that condition of his heart

    :laugh: Better look just a weebit deeper there.

    What about the OXEN? Are't they more than one ox?

    I won't waste anymore time with just another senseless rant by Rippon using deplorable reference material.

    If one will take the time to look at the use of the words found in the KJB and compare that to the lack of comprehensible use of words found in modern versions one will definitely understand much more about the word of God!
     
  14. rbell

    rbell
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    11,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Funny...I find comprehension to be a strength of MV's.
     
  15. Salamander

    Salamander
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, if you want to maintain a less than full understanding then you are certainly granted that privilege by them.

    The KJB is written the way it is so one can fulfill the command to study to shew onesself approved in the word of God to be capable of relating the intent of the Lord, not so men in their high-mindedness can boast their intelligence.
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Actually, the command is to work diligently; the KJV sez 'study' cuz that was one of its meanings 400 years ago. In current usage, how would one STUDY to be quiet? (1 Thess. 4:11, KJV)
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    Sal needs further study.
     
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is true that it means to work diligently, but taken in context, it is referring to rightly dividing the word of God, in which it is necessary to "study". I don't see how this is wrong.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    It isn't actually wrong; it's now ARCHAIC. We almost-universally use 'study' to mean 'examine closely with the purpose of learning'. We do not use it to mean 'work diligently, strive'. That's why modern Bible versions aren't wrong to replace 'study' with 'work diligently'. But some KJVOs wanna have their cake & eat it too. That's why they sometimes make the silly statement that "the KJV is the only English Bible that tells us to study it".
     
  20. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe you are mistaken. The OED cites instances of the word "study" used in the usual sense going back to the 1300's.

    I think that you are taking the root meaning of the Greek word to be the definition of the English word. That is a freshman error.

    A.F.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...