Wrong Take On Romans 12:3c

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Aug 22, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    In the KJV Romans 12:3 goes like this :

    For I say , through the grace given unto me , to every man that is among you , not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think ; but to think soberly , according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith .

    I want to deal with that last clause . It has been wrongly used as a universal verse . It has been mistakenly assumed that every man means all people . But those " among you " are believers . In Romans 12:1 it specifically says : I beseech you therefore brethren .

    This epistle is addressed to the body of Christ -- the bride -- the church . It does not apply to non-believers . In the HCSB it says that : ... God has distributed a measure of faith to each one . ( Ro. 12:3c ) .

    In Ephesians 4:7 it states : But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ . ( KJV ) . Again , this letter by Paul was addressed to saints , the faithful in Christ Jesus . We are to walk worthy of the calling we have received ( 4:1 ) .

    In 1 Peter 4:10 : As every man hath received the gift , even so minister the same one to another , as good stewards of the manifold grace of God .

    The above was written to the " elect according to the foreknowledge of of God the Father... " ( 1 Peter 1:2 KJV )

    Every member of Christ receives gifts and grace from Him . They are distributed in greater or lesser degrees . Jesus had the Holy Spirit with no limits , but we as believers on this earth have it by measure .

    These verses should not be used to suggest that all people have a reservoir of grace or gifts so that they can avail themselves of salvation . There is no spark of Divine grace in all people . Look at the biblical record of the many nations to which the Lord gave them over. He turned them over to their own depravity .
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    wonder why they were told by Jude to contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints is they already had it.

    Even if you are right about the Scripture being to the church does not have anything to do with people having enough faith to come to the Lord as the Bible so clearly states.

    contend for:
    75. agonizomai ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee from 73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or genitive case (to endeavor to accomplish something):--fight, labor fervently, strive.
    1864. epagonizomai ep-ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee from 1909 and 75; to struggle for:--earnestly contend foreign

    Jude 1:
    1: Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
    2: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
    3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    I mean the Bible is full of people with faith before Salvation. What is your point? Do we need to start posting all the Scriptures again of people with faith that led them to Salvation which said "within themselves, if I could only touch the hem of His Garment".

    Matt: 15

    22: And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
    23: But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
    24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
    26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
    27: And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
    28: Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    This is what the Bible is all about!
     
    #2 Brother Bob, Aug 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2006
  3. J.D.

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    Brother Bob - so your faith is what God requires for salvation? It is NOT the gift of God? It IS of your own natural self? It was NOT given to you of the Father? Please, no long, spurious scripture postings, you've done that ad nauseam already, just answer the questions, is YOUR faith NOT of God?
     
  4. webdog

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    Yes, faith is from God. So is our ears, eyes, feet, brain, personality, etc. NONE of these things came from us. Faith is not some mystical gift given to a select group. It's part of what makes us human. God DOES require our faith in Him...not His faith in Himself.
     
    #4 webdog, Aug 22, 2006
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  5. J.D.

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    So then faith is "from God" - your words - and God "requires" our faith in Him - again, your words. So, is God "believing in Himself" by supplying that which He requires?
     
  6. webdog

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    If it were some special gift given only to a few it would be.
     
  7. J.D.

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    So then, you agree, God supplies that which He requires.
     
  8. webdog

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    I don't think I ever said God didn't supply man with faith. The point of who can exercise faith given to them by God is where we disagree. I say it's an attribute given to man when man was created...part of being human, and the calvinist says it's a magical gift given to the "elect" upon regeneration.
     
  9. J.D.

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    So then, go ahead and write it down and sign your name to it - "God gave me faith but I believed in my own natural power. He had nothing to do with my choice except that he gave me information to decide upon, which I did rightly by my own abilities."
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    The woman with the issue of blood, it was her faith that saved her.
    The woman who begged for the crumbs, it was her faith that saved her.
    Thy faith hath made thee whole, thy faith hath made thee whole, thy faith hath made thee whole, etc.

    He requires that I put my faith in action and believe in Him.
    If I never put my faith in action then it is a dead faith and I will split hell wide open.


    Ephesians, chapter 1

    "13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    Rom 5:2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


    Luk 17:6And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.


    Rom 10:17So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    James 2:
    "14": What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    "15": If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    "16": And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    "17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    "18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    "19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    "20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Aug 22, 2006
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  11. webdog

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    Strawman. How about "God gave me a mind to understand and reason (as He has given everybody), and after hearing and "reasoning together with Him" (Isaiah 1:18), I had faith in the finished work of His Son. He had everything to do with it."
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    Matt: 17
    15: Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
    16: And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
    17: Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
    18: And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
    19: Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
    20: And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

    We see here Jesus calling faith and belief the same.
     
  13. J.D.

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    Bob, I know that passage. I can quote it in my sleep.

    Now, I'm going to take your reply to my question in the affirmative. YOUR faith is NOT of God. YOUR faith saved you.

    So, if I present MY faith to God, is he obligated to save me?
     
  14. webdog

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    I just thought of something. In order to "give a gift", don't you need to possess it in order to give it? God doesn't have, nor need faith.

    It can also be looked at like this: when giving blood, it is said that you are giving "the gift of life", even though you are giving only blood. By God giving man the "gift of faith", He has given us a mind to understand and reason.
     
  15. J.D.

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    Webdog:
    You're kidding, right? It isn't reasonable to presume that EVERYBODY is reasonable and has understanding. That's an irrational statement.

    Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful
    Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 2 Thess 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith.
     
  16. webdog

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    *sigh*
    It helps to post Scripture in context...not to support a theological point.
     
  17. J.D.

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    So we're back to that - scripture doesn't prove anything so don't use it, and logic doesn't prove anything so don't use it. Okay, how about the power of persuasion. How about if I POST IN RED and use lots of bold, or how bout bold and italics with lotts of exclamation points!!!!!!! Is that a "reasonable" method of argument? Have you changed your mind NOW??????
     
  18. webdog

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    The strawmen are going up faster today for some reason.

    Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT doesn't prove anything!
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    Yes...God gave understanding to you, but there is no way you can claim He gave it to all the same level. Some people are very very smart. Some are a few cards short. Some are born short, some are tall. Some are Black, some are white. Some are born into money, some are dirt poor. Some live in a land that is easy to grow plants...some live where it is hard. Some places have floods, other places do not. some have churches...other never has seen a church.

    Why is a mouse small and a horse tall? Why do some men live to be 100 and others live only days? You cannot always blaim early deaths on a dad or mother. Why are some born that can not walk and others born to run very fast? Why did God have me have a believe as my earthly father, and others that did not have a father around? Why do some stars shine bright..and others you can not see? Why does some nations have many rivers to drink from, and others have few? Tis God that makes all things. Tis God that is in full control. You are saying God is not fair, for you want to deny God His right to be God. God can do as He pleases


    Who had anything to do with this? No one but God. Some people are ugly, others are good looking. Who had anything to do with this but God? Still to be smart does not mean you have Gods understanding. To be rather dumb, does not mean you cannot understand. When Christ was born, why did he come to a little small town and not to a large city like Rome? God could have reached more people in Rome. We do NOT have the same playing field...and it is wrong to say that man does. Why? God can do as He pleases. Read the last part of Job. Job asked over and over...why God..WHY? God just says...I am God. Job then understood. God does not have to have a reason.



    In Christ...James
     
    #19 Jarthur001, Aug 22, 2006
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  20. webdog

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    What's one thing they all have in common? The power of the Gospel is enough to reach everyone.
     
    #20 webdog, Aug 22, 2006
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