Wsa Paul Just as much an Apostle asa either peter/John?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    As some seem to be viewing him in a less than position, despite what the bible states about him!
     
  2. lakeside

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    The following site { am I allowed to even show it ? ] is going to start one heck of a fire storm: http://www.catholicconvert.com/Porta...Chrysostom.pdf So what say you, does the Bible mention Peter more than any other Apostle including Paul and John ?


    In Galatians 2, Paul is not only calling Peter “Kephas” in order to illustrate his office as “the Rock.” Rather, Paul is actually employing a pun in Greek.
    Notice, for example, how Paul switches between the name “Peter” (Gal 2:7-8) and
    the name “Kephas” (Gal 1:18, 2:9, 2:11, & 2:14). His is no accident. For, while the name “Kephas” is the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic “Kepha” (“Rock”),
    it is ALSO the Greek word for “HEAD.” Thus, in Gal 2:14, when Paul boasts how
    “I said to Kephas, in front of all,” what he’s REALLY saying is that ‘I even stood
    up to the Head for the sake of the Gospel.’ This play on words would not be lost
    on Paul’s original, Greek-speaking audience. Indeed, there would be no way for
    them to miss it!
    Notice, for example, how Paul only calls Simon Bar-Jonah “Peter” in Gal 2:7-8. Indeed, this is the ONLY TIME Paul ever uses the name “Peter” in his
    writings. In all of Paul’s other references to Peter, he is always “Kephas” (1
    Corinth 1:12, 3:22, 9:5, 15:5, Gal 1:18, 2:9, 2:11, & 2:14). So, why the change?
    Because, if we notice, in Gal 2:7-8, Paul is not referring to Peter’s office of
    headship, but rather to Peter’s PERSONAL apostolate to evangelize the Jews - an
    apostolate which was EQUAL with Paul’s apostolate to the Gentiles. Yet, when
    Paul wishes to show Peter as an authority, he is no longer “Peter” but “Kephas”
    (BOTH “Rock” and “HEAD”): >
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    Peter saw to have SAME degree of inspiration as he and the other Apostles had from Jesus, and many consider him to have been the greatest one, due to the books such as Romans and Galatians God gave to him to write down for us!
     
  4. Darrell C

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    I would say without question. Paul was chosen of Christ, not by casting lots.

    If there were a more authoritative Apostle among them, we would have to choose Paul.

    He penned more Scripture than any other, and rebuked Peter for serious error. But they stood on an equal plane in my view.

    Each ministry of the Apostles held a unique importance. None of them should be granted more importance. That doesn't correspond to the general principle that we are one in Christ.


    God bless.
     
  5. Darrell C

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    Notice in CH.1 that the rock is confronted for hypocrisy and pandering to that certain.

    Seems he got a little legalistic as well as forgot the Lord's lesson in the sheet.

    I do appreciate the humor though, by the way.


    God bless.
     
    #5 Darrell C, Apr 28, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2015
  6. clark thompson

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    Paul was as much called to be an apostle as Peter and the others, may have been more called than Matthias.
     
  7. lakeside

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    clark Thompson & Darrell C,

    Matthias was chosen by the 11 Apostles to replace Iscariot to complete the Twelve.
    Paul was chosen by Jesus NOT to be of the Twelve, but the Apostle to the Gentiles.

    The Twelve Apostles had their job, the Apostle Paul had another. I agree that Paul is mentioned as an apostle in the Holy Bible, just not one of the Twelve. The # 12 was a significant number of the Bible.
     
  8. vooks

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    1 Corinthians 9:1King James Version (KJV)

    9 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?


    To me in this verse among others, it appears some doubted Paul's apostleship but he was an apostle just like any other
     
  9. Darrell C

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    Yes I mentioned that. Kind of shows the difference between the Lord choosing and men choosing, doesn't it.

    And because Paul's ministry had an extensive Gentile nature doesn't mean he didn't minister to his own people, just as we do not view Peter's to exclude Gentiles.

    To view them as having different jobs is to overlook the basic principle that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.


    God bless.
     
  10. kyredneck

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    Anyone notice the similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel?:

    It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?

    It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?

    The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

    The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

    Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:

    Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17

    Christ refers to Judas as a devil:

    Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71

    Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count as is Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.
     
  11. Darrell C

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    This is actually a very good post.


    God bless.
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    Do you deny that he was just as called and inspired as Peter though, and was every bit the equal of Him and john in the Church, so there was NO Papacy recognized until centuries later?
     
  13. lakeside

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    Yeshua, to answer your last post." No", all question were passed by Peter after Jesus returned to the Father. Miracles and doctrinal decisions Peter made, example the first doctrinal Church decision was about circumcision and Peter made the final authoritative decision on that Church problem.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    except that the Bible teaches that is was JAMES, NOT peter that made the final decision regarding if gentiles were to be seen and accepted among the jewish believers, and that it was PAUL, NOT peter, who had the fulness of the revealtion of grace!

    Peter saw himself as being one of and equal to all the other Apostles, NOT SUPerior or first in rank among them!

    That delusion came centuries later under RCC!
     
  15. lakeside

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    Yeshua, Many readers of the New Testament misinterpret both Paul and James, thus concluding that their statements about faith and works contradict each other. That is simply not true! There are differences in emphasis, but no contradictions in teaching, if one understands both properly.

    Paul and James agree that both "faith" and "works" are essential parts of Christian life, although they have different roles. Paul and James also agree that salvation ultimately comes from God and from Jesus Christ, not from us or anything that we do.

    However, since Paul and James wrote to different audiences in different situations about different problems, their letters have different presuppositions and different emphases. To combat the opinion of some people that circumcision and other "works of the law" were necessary for Gentile converts to early Christianity, Paul stresses that the foundation of our salvation is the death of Jesus, not the laws of Moses. To combat the opinion of other people that professing faith in God is enough for salvation, James stresses that Christians must put their faith into concrete action.


    What Paul and James actually wrote:
    Galatians 2:16 - "Yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in/of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in/of Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law." (see all of Gal 2:15—3:14)
    Romans 3:28 - "For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law." (see all of Rom 3:21—4:25)
    James 2:24, 26 - "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone... For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead." (see all of James 2:14-26)

    The common but incorrect interpretation, leading to an apparent contradiction between Paul and James:
    •Paul supposedly said: Justification comes not by our good works, but by our faith in Jesus alone.
    •James supposedly said: Justification comes by our good works, not by our faith in God.

    Errors with these interpretations:
    1.Paul is not talking about "good works" in the sense of "charitable acts"; rather, he says "works of the Law" (Gal 2:16; 3:2-12; Rom 3:28), which refers to the Jewish/Mosaic laws on circumcision, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, etc.
    When James says "works," he means acts of charity = care for widows, orphans & the poor, love for neighbors, etc. (James 1:27; 2:8; 2:15-16)
    2.Paul is not opposed to "good works" or "charitable actions"; he sees them as necessary consequences (although not the foundation) of authentic Christian living (see Gal 5–6; Rom 12–15).
    Conversely, James is not opposed to faith; he presupposes it, and then stresses that authentic faith must be put into action (James 2:14-26).
    3.Paul is not talking primarily about our "faith in Jesus," but rather the "faith of Jesus" in God (i.e., Jesus' own trusting in God; see Gal 2:16, 20; Rom 3:22, 26); based on this foundation, our faith in God/Jesus is a necessary (but secondary) response.
    In contrast, James does mean people’s faith, primarily believing in God (2:23) but also believing in Jesus (2:1).
    4.Paul does not presuppose the same definition of "faith" as James does; for Paul, "faith" means "trusting" God, or "entrusting oneself" to God's plans (Rom 4:3-22).
    For James, "faith" is more of an intellectual assent to theological truths, e.g., "believing that God is one" (2:19; even demons can "believe" in God's existence).
    5.Paul did not write the word "alone" in Rom 3:28; Martin Luther was the one who added the word "allein" in his German Bible translation.
    James does not write "by works alone" but stresses "not by faith alone"; he maintains that both have to go together.

    The Example of Abraham,

    Interestingly, to argue their points, both James and Paul appealed to the example of Abraham in Gen 15:6, but in a different way.
    Genesis 15:6 - "And he believed the LORD; and the LORD reckoned it to him as righteousness."
    Galatians 3:6-9 - "Just as Abraham 'believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' 7 so, you see, those who believe are the descendants of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, declared the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the Gentiles shall be blessed in you.' 9 For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed."
    Romans 4:1-3, 10-12 - "What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' ... 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the ancestor of the circumcised who are not only circumcised but who also follow the example of the faith that our ancestor Abraham had before he was circumcised." (see all of Rom 4:1-25)
    James 2:21-23 - "Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (cf. Gen 22:9-18) 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' and he was called the friend of God.
    •In other words, Paul argues that Abraham was justified (in Gen 15) before he was circumcised (in Gen 17),
    while James argues that Abraham's faith/trust in God was completed and evidenced by his willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac (in Gen 22).
     
  16. lakeside

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    Rather than contradicting or disagreeing with each other, it seems that James (probably written after Paul's letters) intended to correct some misinterpretations of Paul's teachings that seem to have arisen in some circles of early Christianity.

    . Paul James
    Definitions of Key Terms:
    "faith" = trusting acceptance of God's will (cf. Rom 4:3-5)

    "works of the law" = regulations of the Jewish Torah (cf. Rom 3:28-31)

    "faith" = intellectual assent to theological truths (2:19)

    "works" = good deeds; putting religion into action (1:22-27)

    Foundation of Justification,
    Reason for Salvation:
    Jesus' actions: the "faith of Jesus" in God (cf. Rom 3:22, 26)
    (i.e., Jesus' trust, that led to his death on the cross)

    not our actions: not fulfilling the "works of the Law" (cf. Rom 3:28)

    adoption: God gave us birth by the word of truth (1:18)

    and election: God chose the poor to be heirs of the kingdom (2:5)

    Consequences for People,
    Results of Being Saved: 1) We need to have faith/trust in Jesus (Rom 1–11)
    and
    2) We need to live ethically, doing good not evil (Rom 12–15) 1) Our faith in Jesus, and 2) our works of charity;
    both are necessary together (2:14-26)

    Example of Abraham: Abraham was justified by faith (in Gen 15)
    already before he was circumcised (in Gen 17)
    Abraham's trust in God (declared in Gen 15) was shown
    and completed by his willingness to sacrifice Isaac (in Gen 22)
     
  17. lakeside

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    Yeshua, Peter chastized virtually the entire Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:10) and laid down the faith of the Church to guide the Council (Acts:15:11-12).

    Also,I point out that the last thing Christ did in the last Gospel was to give Peter pastoral care over the entire Church. John 21:15-19. Now, not only was Christ able to forsee Paul's rebuke of Peter due to Christ's divinity, but Christ specifically saw the rebuke incident, as Christ looked at Peter's future to Peter's death. John 21:18-19. Yet, with the full divine confidence, Christ gave Peter shepherdship over the whole Church.

    Christ Himself has decided that the rebuke incident with Paul did not affect Peter's authority. Peter's faithful service to the end was foreordained...a done deal, per Christ Himself.

    Never for one second did Peter loose his Christ-given authority over the Church!

    Which follows:

    1. Paul could not revoke Peter's Christ-given authority;

    2. Luther, et. al, could not revoke Peter's Christ-given authority;

    3. a Baptist or any other Protestant cannot revoke Peter's Christ-given authority;

    4. Peter himself could not renounce his Christ-given authority.

    Finally, your really attacking Christ and His judgment, not Peter, Jesus was their Mentor and Jesus never made a mistake in forming His Church with His apostles once Judas was replaced, even Judas was chosen for a reason, while Peter was the chief-Apostle.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    James was one of the very first NT books written, and he had already died before paul wrote Romans!
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    Peter called himself ONE of the 12 Apostles, NEVER the chief one, as paul and John were also shown to have every bit of his authority within the church, and paul wrote the fullness of the Gospel unto us, why not peter?
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Paul address the issue of just how does a sinner get right, justified before God? Answer, by grace of God alone, thru faith in Christ alone, while James answered how ought we then live after getting already saved!
     

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