Y'all Are Influencing My Preaching

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Rev. Joshua, Oct 18, 2002.

  1. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I prepared my sermon for a couple of weeks ago, I reflected on my friendship with many people here whom I would consider fundamentalists.

    Here's the sermon.

    I just wanted to let you know that some of you are rubbing off on me a little bit. I'm starting to believe that some fundamentalists might actually be Christians! [​IMG]

    Joshua

    [ October 18, 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]
     
  2. stubbornkelly

    stubbornkelly
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,472
    Likes Received:
    0
    Er, Joshua, MSN says your site doesn't exist. :(
     
  3. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    The link works fine when I try it.

    Can you get to The Main Page?

    Joshua
     
  4. stubbornkelly

    stubbornkelly
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,472
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nope. Not even when I type it in directly.

    Oh well. If it works for you, I'm sure it's on my end.
     
  5. Siegfried

    Siegfried
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joshua,

    I got to the site with no trouble. Although I didn't have time to read it in great detail, I genuinely appreciate the humble spirit in which it was written. I wish that spirit was more prevalent in fundamentalism.

    You'll be shocked, I'm sure, to hear that a fundamentalist disagrees with your exegesis. It seems to me that the application to the situation of the Pharisees, harlots, and publicans was different from the form of the illustration. While the difference in the story grows out of works, the difference in the application grows out of belief (verse 32).

    The point of parallel is that both the first son and the Pharisees claimed to be in submission but in reality were in rebellion, whereas the second son and the sinners initially rebelled but ultimately yielded. The fact that physical labor is present in the illustration is not relevant to the application regarding belief.
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Josh, that was a joke, right? I mean, did you really mean this "Often in Jesus’ parables God – who is our Mother and Father". Nothing quite like placating to those who don't want to believe in the accurate picture of God. This is known as idolatry. I think it was a joke. It wasn't funny either way.
     
  7. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Siegfried - Thank you for your kind words. I do address the issue of belief in the sermon. The focus of the sermon (and of the parable in my opinion), however, is that authentic belief is expressed by doing the will of the one we follow.

    Preach - no joke intended. God is both Mother and Father, and for people whose relationships with their earthly fathers have been painful, giving them space to relate to God is their Mother is a pastoral act.

    Joshua

    [ October 18, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]
     
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can you give me scripture to back up this assertion?

    Again, I don't know what you are talking about. Since God created us to lean upon him and find our sufficiency in him, you want to radically redifine reality and pastoral duties by mixing bad theology into people's lives? Come on Josh. Think about what you are saying. People are better off with an idolatrous view of God as long as they feel better???

    Out like truth among libs.
     
  9. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Genesis 1:27

    Preach, that's not what I'm saying at all.

    Jesus taught us that we have sufficient intimacy with God to relate to God as a parent. God, who has no need to reproduce sexually, has no sex and encompasses all gender identities.

    Finding theologically healthy images of God that cross over people's barriers to faith is Preaching 101.

    Joshua
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    That says nothing about mother. Perhaps God teamed up with Mother Nature to create the world? Oh, I get it.

    I missed the part where that makes God mother.

    I missed that in my preaching courses.

    Forget that Paul told us how to preach in 1 Cor. 1:18-25:

    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

    Here is what you are proposing:

    People have emotional, physical, psychological (alledgedly) problems with God, specifically faith in Christ (although that is disputed among libs).

    The solution to this problem the church faces is to redefine God himself. Remove anything that would be a wall.

    Josh, this is why you are a liberal. You have decided that people should define truth instead of God.
     
  11. Siegfried

    Siegfried
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yet it seems to me that "doing the will" in this passage is more like repentance and faith in Christ's deity than it is like hammering nails with H4H. The passage stops far short of enumerating the prostitutes' and tax collectors participation in community service.

    Just my opinion. Perhaps we'll not agree, but I appreciate the olive branch.

    By the way, wise moving taking your last name out of your screen name. I think it goaded people to "villify" you. :D

    [ October 18, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
     
  12. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joshua,
    Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus was a man! This is not to contradict scripture in that we believers know that God is spirit; not a man. But the characteristics that the son portrayed are masculine.

    [ October 18, 2002, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joshua,
    I think the message was that you are willing to learn from even the fundamentalists. Good for you, laddie. I am even willing to learn from some liberals, and have.

    When we close our minds, in any direction, we become ships foundered at sea, and sunk to the bottom, only to rest in the muck.

    Whilst I will never grasp the idea of a Mother-God, I understand the pastoral intent of your message, and appreciate that.

    Keep on, keeping on. Keep rowing those oars.

    Cheers in the Lord,

    Your friend and fellow so-journer in Christ,

    Jim
     
  14. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would have to say I agree with the ref. to Gen. 1.27. Not to pretend this would make a difference to anyone, liberal or fundamental.

    I consider myself fundamental, and probably many others who do the same would not agree with me, nor I with them.

    Since I have not ever been to Seminary, I know nothing about Preaching 101.

    But I can see how God created man in His image and from that image He took the woman. I do recognize there are very distinct physical, emotional differences in the two;

    Yet I see this in the Love of God, but his requirement for Justice and Holiness as well.

    God is our Heavenly Father and not Mother, yes, but to say God can not possess and display the loving tender mercies of a Mother is not altogether right.

    Just ramblings from one who disregards the desire of men to "acquaint" themselves with God apart from the necessary death of the old nature.

    Take it if you can, leave it if you can't.

    God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Siefried,

    Good point. Personally I think the primary dichotomy in the parable (and just the parable) is between:

    1 - those who on the appearance do not believe but whose actions demonstrate faith and faithfulness

    2 - those who proclaim faithfulness but whose actions give no evidence of such

    I think the HFH analogy is defensible sense the parable itself is literally about hard, sweaty work (as an obviously deeper symbol).

    Ultimately, the whole text is about our tendency to believe that we are the "true" believers and that others are not - when the reality can be quite the opposite (despite appearances).

    Joshua

    P.S. I hope you don't hear any acrimony or defensiveness in my replies. I really enjoy discussing exegesis, although I find it much easier to do in person [​IMG] .

    [ October 18, 2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]
     
  16. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Preach, this really is a digression for another thread. I'll continue the discussion, but here I simply wanted to make the positive statement that my friendships here have encouraged me to remember that faithful Christians come in all shapes and sizes; and that said realization is also affecting my preaching.

    I had hoped that this would be a positive thread (but had completely forgotten about the reference to God as Mother).

    Joshua
     
  17. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for your (as always) pastoral perspective Jim. I probably have as many gripes with the lack of pietism among my liberal colleagues as I do with the hermeneutics of my fundamentalist ones. I think people who take faith seriously and think about it honestly have a common frame of reference that goes beyond ideology.

    Joshua
     
  18. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joshua,

    My husband had a father whom many respected, but those people did not live with him. Home life was such a different story that my husband to this day has an extraordinarily difficult time praying to "Our Father."

    So he prays "Dear Lord Jesus..." instead.

    Don't you think this is a better alternative than waffling around with the 'father/mother' idea?

    When you allow substitution of man's ideas for what God has said, you open up the door to a number of very, VERY undesireable ideas.
     
  19. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually Helen I think "Most Loving God" would perhaps be a more theologically accurate substitution than "Lord Jesus" since Jesus is the one offering the prayer.

    The concept of sexual identity is the human concept that is projected on to God. I'm looking to reduce that baggage, not add to it.

    Joshua

    P.S. I do pray "Our Father" but I have been in places where it has been "Our Mother" or "Holy God" or "Creator" and I've prayed those comfortably as well.
     
  20. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    That sermon makes me even more thankful of my own Pastor and the church that I attend. [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...