Yeah but there are just as many lost baptists...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 4, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    I hear this so many times. I think this line is tiresome and overused.

    If I or anyone else says anything bad about catholics, methodists, presbyterians, etc., someone inevitably goes with this line.

    I don't want to specifically name anyone [snipped], but it seems that the line is repeated over and over.

    Here is a major difference between the issue:

    1. The doctrine that Baptists have held to is correct, biblical, and thoroughly Christian. There is nothing doctrinally that is wrong or that would lead a person to hell.

    2. The doctrine of catholics is incorrect, unbiblical, and completely nonChristian. The doctrine itself is deadly. A person who embraces catholic theology is on their way to hell.

    Of course there are lost people who are members of baptist churches. That doesn't justify the above statement. It isn't the fault of baptist theology as to why that person is lost.

    Does this make sense?

    [ March 05, 2004, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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  3. donnA

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    Joseph is a deep thinker.
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    yes. This is also true.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    I have made the statement that reflects many baptists - most "christian" denominations do not preach salvation by faith alone and hence most members are not saved. And then non-christian (Jews are not saved; Muslims are not saved; Buddhists are not saved) factor in.

    But some denominations (generally) DO preach the truth and people make the assumption that a far greater percentage of those groups ARE saved.

    Guess that is not popular (ask former President Carter who said Jews that didn't accept Jesus as their personal Savior were going to hell). He got into a lot of trouble . . but it didn't change the truth.
     
  6. Watchman

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    I must agree with Daniel David here. There are many church organizations that has totally departed from the faith, or, frankly, never was in the faith.
    While Baptist's do have their problems, MOST hold to the basic tenets of THE faith (there is only one!)
    Speaking against error is never condemned in the Bible, but is, in fact, encouraged.
    Be careful not to call evil good and good evil.
     
  7. brumleyj

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    did you read 2 timothy 3:1-7 relate to falling away fit with 2 thess 2:3

    jbrumley
    PS27:1
    amem
     
  8. zucchini

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    The general point is, if you do not have a saving faith in Christ then clearly Jesus says you are not saved.

    If you support doctrine that takes away from the sole saving actor being Christ Himself, then at best you are doctrinally deceived and somehow are living in cognitive dissonance. I believe it is fair to conclude that most RCs must not be saved because they stay in a church that does not attribute Christ solely and faith solely to their salvation... but if one professes such a faith then it is the Lord's providence to judge their hearts to know if their faith is true.

    Cheers!
    - dave
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    by Daniel David:
    Neither is it the fault of Catholic theology why their lost members are lost.

    All men are lost and enemies of God until Christ reconciled them on the cross (by them, I mean God and man, and by man, I mean not all mankind but only the elect), regardless of their theology before or after.

    God regenerates His own, in His own time, His own way, with or without a preacher, with or without the preached or written word. God needs no means to do what He said He intends to do for His children. Their salvation are entirely His own work.

    There is no one, even among Baptists, who professes total, perfect faith upon Christ and His work and person. Why ? Because many Baptists and Christians believe, teach and hold as doctrine that it is their faith that God honors, it is their faith that caused their regeneration and precedes regeneration, that their repentance is something they can conjure up if properly motivated and shown the Scriptures and made to realize how sinful they are.

    That is not perfect faith.

    Perfect faith is acknowledging that salvation is of the Lord, that the faith of Christ is what justifies the sinner, it is the faith of Christ that God honored, and that everything the saved sinner may have is of the Lord.

    As Paul said, "I am what I am by the grace of God" (1 Corinthians 15:10).

    The Bible says that God gave man faith according to measure:"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Romans 12:3).

    I once asked this in another thread, and ask it again: Is there anyone on this board who will say that every man who put on the Nazi uniform is unsaved and cannot be a Christian because he is a Nazi ?

    I am not a Catholic Defender. I have no use for Catholic doctrines. God knows how many times rocks have landed on the rooftop of the church I used to pastor in Roman Catholic Philippines because we had a PA system up on that roof, and I would very often preach against Roman Catholic doctrines.

    As God is my witness, twice a neighbor of that church waited for me in the dark with intent to kill, and twice, for some reason, I did not use the same approach to that church from the road.

    But that church was started as a Bible Study in a member's house where she was the only believer, and God's very first converts were all men. Roman Catholics. Devout as devout can be on the surface, who testified that in their heart of hearts, they were hungry for true Bible doctrine, that somehow they were convinced it was Jesus, and Jesus alone that mattered.

    And I've had walk-ins who were Roman Catholics who have expressed the same thing, and most of them stayed in that church, and are still there to date.

    The Lord said: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33.
     
  10. Daniel David

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    Pinoybaptist, how do you twist 1 Cor. 1:18-21 and Romans 10:14-17?

    Theology doesn't save, but it can keep you from salvation.

    Note that John said that whoever does not have the doctrine of Christ DOES NOT HAVE GOD.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    Daniel David,

    So, now, are you saying that theology is more powerful than Christ's blood, more effective than Christ's finished work, in that it can keep you from being saved ? Did Christ shout "it is finished" ? or did He shout, "done, but, for the teaching".

    Did the saints John saw in heaven say that they were in heaven because they were redeemed to God by Christ's blood, or by Christ's blood AND theology.

    Here is that scripture you attribute to John.

    The key word of course, is, I believe, "of". Is it the doctrine of Christ, as in those that Christ taught, or is it the doctrine of Christ, as in the doctrine about Christ, His person, His deity, His Lordship, His being the one and only Savior, the true Savior.

    All Catholics believe that Jesus is come in the flesh, that is, that God has put on human flesh, and have come to save sinners. Many of these Catholics add Mary and saint this or saint that, but that is because that is what they were taught and made to believe.

    Am I saying all Catholics are children of God ? No. Anymore than I am saying that all Baptists are. But I am saying that God has His children who may be in the clutches of Roman Catholicism, or other religions, and how God will bring them out of these religions is beyond anyone. He may, and then again, He may not.

    What did the Lord say to that gossiping Baptist who asked what John will do in the meantime ? It is none of your business.
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    Excellent testimony, pinoybaptist, from someone who has literally been in the trenches winning souls for Jesus Christ. Reminds me of another verse in John:

    "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

    Thank you for your posts. May God Bless You. [​IMG]
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Sheeagle, of course you don't understand what he is saying. Pinoybaptist is saying that a person can be saved even without believing Christian doctrine. This means that muslims, buddhists, hindus, JWs, mormons, etc., all have saved people to. Is that what you believe? So much for being a fundamentalist. I already knew that though.

    Pinoybaptist, if I am not representing your view properly, please let me know.
     
  14. Charles Meadows

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    Daniel,

    That's not what Pinoybaptist is saying. Certainly someone CAN be saved by believing on Christ alone - whether their understanding of Mary, works, eschatology etc is correct or not. If you deny this then it is YOU who hath not the doctine of Christ! You said you "have the scriptures". Please try to understand and contextualize them better - rather than just memorizing them. [​IMG]
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    Daniel David:

    You are correct. Brother Meadows, thank you for the kind words, but there is more than that which I am saying.

    I think our misunderstanding with each other stems from our view on how one is saved. If I am not mistaken, DD is also an electionist. if I am mistaken, then I apologize.

    DD's take is that for salvation to be effective, one must have the right theology. But the right theology, I am saying, is not going to be the cause of one's eternal salvation. The right theology brings you to a correct perspective of who God is, who you are, what Jesus has done for you, what is expected of you in return, what sin is, how sin affects your Christian walk, talk, and look, how Christ deals and have dealt with your sin, etc., etc., the whole gamut of a gracious life, if you will. But it is not the cause, it is not the root, of one's salvation.

    The Bible says that the names of the elect were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. Which means none of the elect were even born, but, God, who is ahead of time since he inhabits eternity, knew the names of every one of them, called them out by name. He adopted them into His family regardless of their lost condition in time.

    Every adoption, to be legal, had to have some legal work done. The legal work was satisfied at Calvary, sealed with the blood of the Lamb of Glory. Justice was not sacrificed. Justice was meted out to the One who took upon Himself every sin that ever was committed by His brethren, including the sin of false theology. Did Paul say of Alexander the coppersmith that this person was damned because he did Paul much wrong ?

    Isaiah said:

    That is, not one of those whom He claimed as His own from eternity past, will be absent in the new heavens and the new earth, in eternity future. He will gather His own in one fold in heaven , not on earth.

    As I've said before in another thread, the true elect children of God are separated in this plane called time by doctrine, by religion, by creed, by church, by race, by seas, by mountains, by language, by culture, and that is because we live in a fallen world, ruled by one whose main goal is to divide and confuse.

    But not so in heaven. In heaven, all believers will be one. Nothing of the old life will be remembered. Nothing of the wrong doctrines, none of the wrong church.

    The adoption of the elect was not a free process, it was not gratis. At least, not for God. He had to pay a price in the person of His Son.

    Paul said:

    So, I am saying that, yes, there are elect children of God everywhere. Revelation 7:9 says "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ".

    Church membership or theology does not factor in anywhere in that verse. It is man who had put up barriers and signs that says "if you do not have this theology, or if you are not of this church, or if you do not do this, or that, then you are not a child of God."

    God will take care of His own people. Romans 8:28-30 says nothing of his need for a preacher or a set of theologies to save His people. When He will regenerate each, in time, none knows. But he will do so, in his own time, in his own way.

    He foreknew them, he predestinated them, He called them, He justified them, and he glorified them. He will bring them all to glory, with or without a preacher, with or without the printed or spoken word.

    Now, there are many among His children whom He will gather into a local, visible church, imperfect as the church may be. To these churches he gave apostles, teachers, preachers, evangelists for the maturing of each saint, for instructions on how to live in this life according to the ways of Heaven and therefore save themselves from the pains and sufferings of sin in this life.

    A natural child sounds, looks, and talks like his natural parents. Yeah, the child may even think like them.

    But an adopted child ? The most we can be on this plane called time is to strive to be like the Savior, which is why blessed is the child of God whom He directs to a sheepfold of His where the child receives instruction until he resembles his adoptive parent.

    This whole discussion, if I recall correctly is connected to the Mel Gibson thing. In another post I challenged the judgment on Gibson's salvation or damnation. Am I saying that Gibson is in fact a child of God ? No. But neither will I say he is not, if the basis will be his theology and his being a member of the Catholic Church.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    Pinoy, I am an electionist. What I object to is that you are using only a handful of texts and coming to a conclusion instead of using all texts.

    What God purposed in eternity, he will do in time.

    How will they hear without a preacher? Who is the 'they'? It is the elect.

    God will definitely get his gospel message to reach his elect. You don't think he will. You think people are saved outside of faith in Christ.

    As I said earlier, Christ said that if one does not believe that he is God, that person will die in their sins.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Daniel David, you said:
    And He did, Daniel. He purposed to save His people from their sins in eternity. He did it in time. 2,000 years ago on the cross.

    You also said:

    Wrong. I know he will. He did so to Abraham when there was no Daniel David or Pinoy Baptist or John Rice or John Calvin around. He can still do so today, wherever they are. How he will I do not propose to know, but, if you will insist that He needs preachers to finish up what He said He will do, then, you are saying that millions upon millions have died who are damned and without hope simply beause there were no preachers who got to them in time. You are also saying that millions upon millions of babies die in their mother's wombs, or on the abortionist's table, or in hospitals, without hope. And you're saying the same thing for adults with the minds of infants.

    You also said:
    Yeah, but look at who Christ was speaking to. Pharisess and Sadducees, religionists of his time, who say they have the truth, but do not know truth even if it stares them in the face.

    His elect will believe in Him, probably some do not know Him by Name, but they know Him in spirit. Israel at one time did not know his Name until He revealed it to them, but, that did not stop an Israelite from being of God's chosen nation.

    And national physical Israel is a picture of the true Israel of God. A child of God had nothing to do with His name being in the roster of heaven, that was not his choice, but God's. He had nothing to do about where he was born on earth, in time, or who his parents are, or what their religion is. But his name is there, whether or not he knows the Name of the Son of God, yet his spirit will, in God's own time, be witnessed to by God's Spirit, that he is a son of God.

    Also, you quoted Romans 10:14, and you are right, they are the elect who are part of National Israel. But, after having discussed the sovereignty of God in eternal election from Chapter 8 to 9, and discussing that the elect are chosen not on the basis of their having done sin or not, is Paul now turning around and saying that the success of God's salvation being enjoyed by His elect now rest upon the ability of miserable sinners preaching His Word ?

    Surely not. The purpose of the gospel is not to save, but to bring life and immortality to light, and these Israelites, like Mel Gibson whom you judge to be a child of hell, have the zeal of God but not according to knowledge, and how shall they have that knowledge except someone preach it to them ?

    Mel Gibson, and a good number of Catholics, and Moslems, have the zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Let us go therefore and preach to them.
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Don't think there is really a difference in the end result. God's elect will "call on the name of the Lord and be saved by faith alone. And it is our responsibility to proclaim the Gospel, while it is God's responsibility to save His own.
     
  19. Artimaeus

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    Que Sera, Sera
     

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