Yet Another HCSB Thread !

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Jan 28, 2007.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Well actually this deals with the TNIV as well . Some believe that the TNIV is kind of dynamic . I say it is essentially literal most of the time . Therefore I do not believe it is too far removed from the HCSB or the ESV . As I have said many times -- the TNIV is my favorite , the HCSB is my #2 choice . ( When the ISV comes out with both Testaments in hardback I may alter my personal rankings . )

    I really do like the HCSB . I do . But in the following you will see that a number of times the TNIV reading is more literal . Now literal doesn't always equate with being the best or most accurate . So I will just note the literal at times ( as per the NET Bible ). It does not mean that it is my personal choice necessarly . Sometimes I'll just supply the respective readings and neither rendering will be literal . Once in awhile I'll note the NLT2 .

    The examples will be from the book of Isaiah . The HCSB will be at the top , and the TNIV will be below .

    8:12 Alliance
    Conspiracy ( same in the NLT and NET text )

    8:20 To the law and to the testimony !
    Consult God's instruction and the testimony of warning .

    11:4 discipline
    the rod ( lit.)

    11:4 command
    the breath ( lit.)

    11:15 the gulf of Suez
    the Egyptian sea ( same as NET text . The literal is The Sea of Egypt ).

    16:5 the HCSB adds " will sit on His throne forever " .

    16:10 grapes
    wine (lit.)

    19:3 Egypt's spirit will be disturbed within it
    The Egyptians will lose heart ( same as NLT2)

    21:4 my last glimmer of hope
    the twilight I longed for ( NET text : The Twilight I desired .)
    Lit. my twilight

    22:1 An oracle against
    A prophecy concerning

    25:3 people
    nations ( lit.)

    26:11 Your hand is lifted up [ to take action ]
    your hand is lifted high
    NETnote in Heb. : O Lord , your hand is lifted up .

    27:10 pastures abandoned
    an abandoned settlement ( NET text : deserted settled )

    28:15 We have cut a deal with death
    We have entered into a covenant with death
    NET text : we have made a treaty with death

    28:16 unshakable
    never to be stricken with panic
    Heb. will not hurry . i.e. act in panic

    28:19 Only terror will cause you to understand the message .
    The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror .

    28:21 His disturbing task
    His alien task ( NET text : his strange task )

    29:13 honor Me with lip service
    honor me with their lips ( lit.)
     
  2. Rippon

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    Continuing ...

    From the book of Isaiah . HCSB at the top and TNIV below .

    30:20 Your teacher
    your teachers ( NET text )

    31:3 raises His hand [to strike ]
    stretches out his hand

    31:4 subdued by their noise
    disturbed by their clamor ( NET text : intimidated by their yelling )

    31:9 His rock will pass away
    Their stronghold will fall ( NET text : They will surrender their stronghold )

    40:26 Look up and see
    Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens
    Heb. lift on high your eyes and see

    41:1 for the trial
    at the place of judgment

    41:2 the Lord
    He (lit.)

    42:6 called you for a righteous [purpose]
    called you in righteousness ( lit. call you in righteousness )

    42:25 paid no attention
    did not take it to heart ( lit. did not put on heart )

    44:18 Such people
    They ( lit.)

    48:4 your neck is iron
    the sinews of your neck were iron ( lit. is an iron sinew )
     
  3. Rippon

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    Continuing In Isaiah

    HCSB at the top and TNIV below .

    53:3 He was like one people turned away
    Like one from whom people hide their faces
    Lit. And like a hiding of faces from Him

    53:8 who considered His fate ?
    who of his generation protested ?
    The point -- few cared about His harsh treatment

    54:7 refute any accusation
    refute every tongue

    55:11 prosper in what I send it [to do]
    achieve the purpose for which I sent it

    55:12 be peacefully guided
    be led forth in peace

    55:13 it will make a name for the Lord
    This will be for the Lord's renown
    NETnote :in the sense of a monument

    56:6 who convert to the Lord
    who bind themselves to the Lord
    Heb. who attach themselves to

    57:16 the spirit would grow weak before me
    they would faint away because of me
    Heb. for a spirit from before me would be faint

    58:13 keep me from desecrating
    keep your feet from (lit.)

    60:13 glorify My dwelling place
    glorify the place for my feet (lit.)

    61:1 heal
    bind up (lit.)

    61:7 they will possess double in their land
    you will inherit a double portion

    63:5 My wrath assisted Me
    My own wrath sustained me
    Heb. and my anger , it supported Me

    65:6 I will repay them fully
    I will pay back into their laps
    Lit. repay into their lap

    65:7 I will reward them fully
    I will measure into their laps the full payment
    Lit. pay back into their lap

    65:8 there's some good in it
    there's still a blessing in it
    Heb. for a blessing is in it
     
  4. Rippon

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    2 Peter

    HCSB at the top , and TNIV below .

    1:1 __ obtained a faith of equal privilege with ours
    received a faith as precious as ours
    I don't know why the HCSB used the word "privilege" . The word "value" would be better .

    1:9 __ No conjunction .
    But
    NET note : The connection , though causal , is also adversative .

    1:19 __ strongly confirmed
    completely reliable
    NET text : altogether reliable .

    1:21 __ moved by
    carried along by ( same as in NET text )

    2:2 __ unrestrained ways
    depraved conduct
    NET text : debauched lifestyles

    2:7 __ unrestrained behavior of the immoral
    depraved conduct of the lawless
    NET text : the debauched lifestyle of lawless men

    2:10 __ they do not tremble when they blaspheme the glorious ones
    they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings
    NET note : verse 11 seems to suggest that wicked angels are what the author intends .

    2:13 __ delighting in their deceptions
    reveling in their pleasures
    NET text : indulging in their deceitful pleasures
    NET note : or carousing , reveling

    3:1 __ I awaken your pure understanding with a reminder
    reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking
    NET text : I am trying to stir up your pure mind by way of reminder

    3:3 __ their own lusts
    their own evil desires
    NET text : their own evil urges
    NET note ; going according to their own evil urges

    3:4 __ Where is the promise of His coming ?
    Where is this 'coming' he promised ?
    NET text : Where is his promised return ?
    I prefer the TNIV rendering . " Where is the promise of His coming ?" It's in the Bible for a direct answer . But what the text means is " Why hasn't He returned after all this time ?"

    3:5 __ the earth existed out of water
    the earth was formed out of water ( same as NET text )
    The HCSB is worded kind of awkwardly .
     
  5. Marcia

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    Thanks for the comparison, Rippon. :wavey:

    I have the illustrated HCSB - I bought it for the maps and photos, but I find that I usually like the translation as well. I use it mainly for devotional time and really enjoy it. Looking at the photos gives me a sense of the location related to the passage of what I'm reading (when there is a photo) and adds to the devotional for me.

    I do not have a TNIV. I've noticed in their chapter on various Bible versions, that Gordon Fee and D. Stuart (in their book, Reading The Bible For All Its Worth) seem to like the TNIV and seem to favor more dynamic translations over literal ones. They point out why and it makes a lot of sense. I was always such a diehard NASB/NASU fan but now I'm seeing the value of the dynamic versions (though I stop at paraphrases).

    So is the TNIV your favorite? And if you've read Fee and Stuart's book, what do you think of it? I'm having to read parts of it for a NT1 seminary course right now.
     
  6. Rippon

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    Hi Marcia . I have read and appreciated " How To Read the Bible For All It's Worth " by Fee & Stuart . They certainly did come out in favor for the TNIV . Even the NSRV was given high marks by them . Honorable mention was also given to the NJB and the REB among others .

    I place the TNIV in the essentially literal column . It does use idiomatic language and functional equivalence moreso than the NASU for instance . However , it is closer on a scale to the NASU than many would suspect . The TNIV is what Fee and others have called a mediating translation -- right at the middle point between a formal approach and a more dynamic one .

    My personal rankings for English Bible translations may change . From what I have been hearing the ISV is superior to the TNIV . So the HCSB will fall to #3 as to what I prefer . Still the HCSB is a worthwhile translation . The more , the merrier I say .
     
  7. Marcia

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    Thanks, Rippon.

    The ISV is a new one to me. What is that?
     
  8. Rippon

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    The ISV stands for the International Standard Version . Over 9,000 verses have to be completed in the Old Testament . It is supposed to be very readable , even moreso than the TNIV . But it is also supposed to be highly accurate . So it will be the best of both worlds I guess . I am looking foward to the finished product .

    I thought I'd quote some short extracts from : " How To Read The Bible for Al Its Worth " .

    ... for study you should use almost any modern translation rather than the KJV or the NKJV . (p.40)

    But the basic translation for reading and studing should be something in the TNIV/NIV/NRSV range . (p.42)

    ... a translation by functional equivalence is much to be preferred to a more "literal" translation .(p.46)

    [ After giving some contrasting examples from , on the one hand -- NKJV and the NASU , the authors show the NIV/TNIV renderings.] These are not only to be preferred ; they are , in fact , more accurate because they give a genuine English equivalent rather than a literal , Greek way of expressing things that in English would be nearly meaningless . (p.48)

    Judiciously rendering Hebrew into English requires an equivalent meaning , not an equivalent word or clause pattern . (p.50)

    The authors have some very helpful material on major blocks of the Bible . I also appreciated their Appendix : The Evaluation and Use Of commentaries .

    I bought the book in the Philippines in March of 2005 and have consulted it regularly ever since .
     
  9. Rippon

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    This subject deals with inclusive verses . The HCSB is not as gender-accurate as the TNIV , but it is better than the ESV . In the book of Proverbs I'll cite the references where the HCSB is more inclusive than the ESV .

    1:18 ; 8:31 ; 11:26 ; 12:23 ; 14:31 ; 15:11 ; 16:13 ; 16:32 ; 17:9,10,20 ;18:10 ; 19:6,17 ; 20:27 ; 21:22,24,28 ; 24:20 ; 25:10,19,26 ; 26:7 ; 27:12 ; 8:2,3 ; 29:1,7,13

    On the other hand the following references in Proverbs list some places where the ESV is more inclusive than the HCSB .

    3:13 ; 12:3 ; 13;14 ; 14:7,16

    In Ecc. the HCSB has some more inclusive wording compared with the ESV .

    2:3 ; 3:21 ; 6:1 ; 8:8 ; 9:3,4 ; 10:8,9 ; 12:13

    Then there is Romans .

    1:18 ; 2:1,3; 5:18 ; 9:20 ;14:1

    And Luke : 2:52 ; 3:6 ; 5:10 ; 6:39 ; 12:36,37 ; 16:15
     
  10. Keith M

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    Rippon, the measure of accuracy depends upon how faithful a translation is to what is found in the original-language manuscripts, not what we think it should say. If the manuscripts show a masculine word at a certain place, then by no means should we ever "dumb it down" by using anything but a masculine word. Changing a masculine word to a word or words that are "gender inclusive" or "gender accurate" demonstrates an inferiority in the accuracy of a certain verse or passage, not it's superiority. In cases where modern translations use such terms they are not at all accurate if they don't reflect what was originally written. Your opinions don't really amount to a hill of beans when the original languages are being "dumbed down" by using such "gender inclusive" words. One of the main reasons I normally keep you on my ignore list is because you always state your own opinions and judgments as if they are fact. In all truth, these are nothing more than your own opinions.

    Carry on...

    :sleeping_2: :sleeping_2: :sleeping_2: :sleeping_2:
     
  11. Rippon

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    Dear Keith ,

    Howdy . I don't have as much time to spend on the internet as many of you apparently have . But it's better to be late than never to respond to your disinformation .

    First of all I'd like to tackle your contention regarding what you have characterized as a "dumbing-down" of some Bible versions . The NIV family in particular was evidently in your scopes . The NIV and TNIV have not dumbed anything down . The NIrV has a certain audience in mind . It's appropriate for children between the ages of 6-10 or so . The NIrV is also suited for people who are not native English speakers . The Lord has seen fit to bless this particular version in those situations . So your slur-words amount to jusr that -- slur words .

    If you'd investigate more you would discover that you'd have to eat your words . If you regard all dynamic versions as dumbed-down , you should take a look at the REB . A great deal of it is written in early to mid-Victorian style English .

    You 've been aiming your squirt-gun at the TNIV for some time now -- tilting at your windmills . A moderator had to delete your nasty comments about this version a number of months ago . Better watch it , or it could happen again . You could just stick to your usual railing against the KJV'ers although you share many of their characteristics .

    Let's talk about the TNIV . Specifically the NT . Only 7% of the NIV has been changed . A good 5% has nothing to do with inclusive language . Many say that the changes have moved it closer to the formal end of the scale .

    Regarding the inclusive language : the ESV and HCSB are rather similiar with their renderings in many cases . The last two versions areconsidered conservative . The NLT2 and NET use about as much inclusive language as the TNIV . What's the big deal ?

    The Greek word translitereated Adelphoi needs to be mentioned . The TNIV translates that uniformly as " brothers and sisters" . The ESV has "brothers" in the text but has "or brothers and sisters" in the footnotes 151 times ! I counted each instance in the NT . The ESV revisers have seen that "brothers and sisters" is a good alternative . It is not by whim either . Context bears it out .

    I'm not a Greek guy but the same thing could be done with Adelphos .

    Anthropos and Anthropoi come into view . The ESV team has been inconsistent . Sometimes they let the context naturallly play out to an obvious reference to men and women -- and they translate accordingly . Other times they use male-oriented language . The TNIV renders things more consistenly according to the context of a given passage .

    And different language groups do not have the capacity to use male-oriented language the way English does . Those languages can't use a singular form in the generic way that older English does .This "missing male nuance in the TNIV" sounds like a lot of hocus-pocus to me . What is that ancient Jewish practice called ? The Kabal ? It's Kabalistic .

    Do you have a problem with translations which use male language when there is no corresponding equivalent in the original languages ? Because you will find examples of this in the NIV , ESV , NASU , NKJ and of course the KJV to name a few . If you believe it is wrong to use inclusive language ( when competent Greek scholars think differenly ) -- how about when the converse occurs ?



    Grudem & Co. have done a grave disservice when they try to picture the TNIV team variously as liberals , feminist-leaning , PC-oriented and other such classy labels.

    You have admitted that you have not read the HCSB extensively . So I do not know why you have made a categorical claim that it is so superior to the NIV family . Do you even own hard copies of the HCSB or the TNIV ? If not -- don't open your mouth and make unfounded claims . You owe it to yourself to actually read both versions extensively .

    I find it humorous that you have mentioned numerous times that I have been put on your ignore list. Do you know the meaning of "ignore" ? It does not mean pay attention to . Why make remarks on my posts if they ruffle your feathers so much ?

    As you said , "carry on" Keith . You can ignore this post if you want to :)
     
  12. gb93433

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    The HCSB shoud be called the SBCB (Southern Baptist Convention Bible)
     
  13. Keith M

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    So far I haven't seen anything in the HCSB that would pinpoint it as a Southern Baptist Bible. It seems to be a good translation that is not slanted toward any particular denominational views. OTOH, I haven't used the HCSB extensively, so there may be some things I missed.
     
  14. Faith alone

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    Rippon,

    I like the TNIV better than the NIV as well, but I would not agree that the TNIV is more accurate than the HCSB. Accuracy is a curious animal. But the TNIV is not more "word-for-word" literal, and is more DE on the FE-DE spectrum. (Dynamic equivalent [meaning based] vs. formal equivalency)

    And looking at a handful of texts in Isaiah is not the place to make the judgment. Best go to the NT. I say pick any chapter in the NT and then let's compare the HCSB and the TNIV.

    FA
     
  15. Faith alone

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    It's actually the work of Art Farstad - the editor of the NKJV. He had been working on a new translation - from scratch, not on a revision. He had been doing so since he finished work on the NKJV - since about 1984. It was based on the majority Greek text that he and Z. Hodges had published in 1983 (I think.)

    When the NIVI and later rumors about work on the TNIV came out, the SBC decided to back Farstad financially IOT speed up the work. Also, that would allow them to not have to pay royalties to Zondervan for using the NIV in their SS and other materials. That happened in 98. Farstad died later that year. The 2nd in command took over. He converted the work to be based on the Alexandrian text. (Frastad had completed his rough draft of the entire Bible).

    FA
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Faith Alone: //That happened in 98. Farstad died
    later that year. The 2nd in command took
    over. He converted the work to be based
    on the Alexandrian text.//

    Strange, I've been using the HCSB for three or four
    years (I was using it sooner than 2003 when the compelte
    Bible was published). Every time I check accusations
    that some MV uses the Alexandrian texts, I find that
    the HCSB used the majority texts.

    I.E. I call. Which choices did the translators
    of the HCSB use that were from the Alexandrian texts
    and not the Majority texts?
     
    #16 Ed Edwards, Feb 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2007
  17. rsr

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    According to the introduction of the HCSB:

    Doesn't quite sound like the Majority Text.
     
  18. rsr

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    Had the convention wanted a real Baptist Bible, it would have used immersed, as Baptists 150 years ago wanted to do (and actually did through the American Bible Union.)
     
  19. Faith alone

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    Well, all I can say is that in conversations in the BTrans egroup (a group of professional Bible translators) it was verfied by all that the HCSB is an Alexandrian work. I hope they left some ofthe MT version in but regardless it is essentially an Alexandrian work now. Personally, I wish it had remained a pure majority text translation, since we do not have any others out there. (The NKJV is a revision of the KJV based on the TR, and the WEB is a revision of the ASV-1901 based on the majority text.) There aren't any pure new translations based on the Byzantine text. We need some. (The TR is a poor representative of the MT.)

    But I think we can find a few examples...

    John 7:39 - HCSB has "Spirit" - omitting "holy" - which Mt has.
    John 7:40 - HCSb has "some" - Mt reads "many."
    John 7:50 - HCSB has "previously" - MT omits.

    If you follow through anywhere in the NT you'll find that they didn't miss many in making these changes.

    FA
     
  20. Rippon

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    This thread is for Van's benefit. Van,I have made several threads regarding the HCSB.This is just one of many. I know that in this thread I was comparing it with the TNIV. The 2011 NIV is very close to the TNIV though.
     

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