Yet Another OSAS Thread

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Nicholas25, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. Nicholas25

    Nicholas25
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    If I wanted to believe in eternal security/OSAS what would I do with the verses of scripture that seem to teach conditional security? I know the verses that seem to teach OSAS, but what about the ones that seem to refute it?
     
  2. Don

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    Scripture doesn't contradict itself. Point out the verses that seem to contradict OSAS, and have a discussion.
     
  3. Nicholas25

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    Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (King James Version)

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeninate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor exortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (King James Version) *No one living for Christ would be involved in these things, but what about someone who has fell out of fellowship with God because of consistent sin?

    Galatians 5:19-21 Now the words of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in times past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (King James Version)

    Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and havee tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (King James Version)

    My best friends in the faith actually hold to eternal security, and although I am a Christian who attends a Free Will Baptist Church, I do not believe we are saved by works or kept saved by works. I have said that I believe we are saved by grace through faith, but that when we fully place our faith back in the world and not in Christ, that is when we have walked away from him. My struggle is with people who totally return to their old way of life and live wicked lives contrary to the teaching of scripture. Many quickly say, "they must not have been saved in the first place," but I know that is not the case with everyone.

    I am coming in love, wanting to learn! :)
     
  4. gb93433

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    The verses that are clear, teach the truth of salvation that there cannot be any debate. Verses which seem to not be so clear are often not interpreted in light of their historical context but rather in terms of experience and American theology in American culture which basically comes from a Greek philosophical background. Remember that most of scripture was written by those who wrote Greek as a second language and live din a Jewish culture.

    1 John 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

    The word for know from a Jewish mindset is to know in an intimate way just intellectually. Having salvation is not to be a flippant thing so we can rest and live like the devil. It should produce a security and comfort knowing that God loves us and will not desert us.

    In regards to Heb. 6 it deals with the issue of flipping back and forth between Christianity and Judaism when it is convenient to do so and to go where there is less pressure due to persecution. It has nothing to do with salvation. The historical context illustrates the situation.
     
    #4 gb93433, Nov 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2008
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Christians sin. And when we do, we have an advocate (I John 1-2)

    Christians are not "slaves" (bound by our nature) to sin. Christians do not continually "practice" (way of life) sin.

    Many verses that are used for "conditional" security are of those ilk, implying some "sinless perfection" or else we are bond for hell.

    Like Paul, as long as I have this sinful human body, I will sin. When I am finally free from that is the day I reach perfection.
     
  6. Nicholas25

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    I agree with the above 100%!

    My question is about those who are saved, and maybe live for Christ for years (show fruit of the Spirit), and then for whatever reason fall back into the ways of the world, and many times find themselves in a worse shape than they were before Christ. Many quickly say "well, they must not have been saved in the first place." That may be true with some, but we know it can't be with all. Thanks.
     
  7. Martin

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    ==Why don't we turn that question around. If you wanted to believe in conditional security what would you do with the verses of Scripture that seem to teach eternal security?

    Why do I turn it around? Because Scripture is so clear that none of those who come to Jesus will perish (Jn 6:37-39,10:27-29). After all, how can God predestine someone to be like Christ and then that person fail to be like Christ (Rom 8:29-30). Did God fail? If a person could lose their salvation then yes. However since Scripture clearly teaches God cannot fail that is not a realistic option.

    What about those verses that seem to teach OSAS?

    First, I don't believe in OSAS. I believe in the final perseverance of the saints.

    Second, read the context and wording of whatever verses you are talking about carefully. You might be surprised how that clears things up.

    Third, consider Scripture's very clear statements on the finality of salvation.
     
  8. Martin

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    ==The people Paul is writing to "were once slaves of sin" but now they were "obedient from the heart" and had been "set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness" (Rom 6:17-18). Paul's point is that true salvation works a change in a person's life. He makes the same points in Romans 8:5-11, Gal 5:19-24 (look at verse 24), and other places. Salvation changes the person's life.


    ==Paul is talking about the "unrighteous" (1Cor 6:1, 9). These are the unsaved. The lifestyles mentioned in verses 9 & 10 are those which are practiced by the "unrighteous" (Gal 5:19-21). A true believer will not, cannot, practice sin because they have been born of God (1Jn 3:4-10). A person who claims to be saved and is living in sin is not saved according to Scripture. We must remember that everyone who claims to be saved is not.

    ==See Above. Also note verse 22-24 where Paul describes the "fruit" of the Holy Spirit (ie...the result of having the Holy Spirit in your life). In verse 24 Paul makes it clear that believers have "crucified the flesh with its passions and desires". What does crucified mean? Put to death. True believers have put to death the passions and desires of the flesh. That does not mean that true believers are perfect or sinless. It does mean that true believers will not practice the deeds of the flesh like those who do not have the Spirit do (Gal 5:19-21, Rom 8:6-10).


    ==This is one of those tricky verses that has to be understood in its larger context. Isolate and you will get confused. As you probably know there are several different ways of understanding these verses. So it might be helpful to review those understandings and see if they hold up.

    1. Loss of salvation. This view is based upon the fact that the verse says they had fallen away. However if this verse is teaching that a person can lose their salvation then it is also saying that once salvation is lost, once a person has fallen away, they cannot be saved again. Is that Scriptural? I don't think so. Peter, David, and others fell yet they were not finally rejected (Ps 37:24ff). This view runs into even more problems when we consider that the writer of Hebrews believed that salvation was forever (Heb 7:25, 9:11-14, 10:14, etc). Not only the writer of Hebrews, but Jesus (John 6:37-39), Paul (Eph 1:13-14), and others believed and taught that salvation was final. Another problem is that the writer of Hebrews was convinced that his readers were not in the situation he was warning against. So this view just does not work.

    2. Believers who lose rewards. This view is just as problematic as the first. The idea that a true believer could fall away and still be saved, mainly when the writer of Hebrews uses such strong language (vss4-6), is just non-sense. Anyone who puts Christ to open shame and tramples His blood underfoot is not a true believer.

    3. False believers. This view is not without its problems. However taking all the evidence together this seems to be the most likely view. The writer of Hebrews is concerned that his readers are not growing. While he is sure that despite their lack of growth they are truly saved (vs9) he warns about those who seem to have come to the door of salvation only to fall away. They don't produce good fruit but rather thorns (vss 7-8). These are people who know the truth, have experienced the truth, but who show by their falling away that they have not shared in salvation. The falling away here is a final falling away. It would have been better for them never to have heard the Gospel then to have heard it and walked away. That is the very point Peter makes in 2Peter 2:20-22.


    ==How do you know that? We should judge these things by Scripture alone and never by experience. It does not matter what a person has done, said, or claimed, if their lifestyle is sinful then they have never been born of God (1Jn 3:9-10).

    I am sure what I have said here will not change your mind. However I pray that it at least helps you understand how others view these verses.

    God bless you!
     
    #8 Martin, Nov 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2008
  9. drfuss

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    Martan writes:
    "1. Loss of salvation. This view is based upon the fact that the verse says they had fallen away. However if this verse is teaching that a person can lose their salvation then it is also saying that once salvation is lost, once a person has fallen away, they cannot be saved again. Is that Scriptural? I don't think so. Peter, David, and others fell yet they were not finally rejected (Ps 37:24ff). This view runs into even more problems when we consider that the writer of Hebrews believed that salvation was forever (Heb 7:25, 9:11-14, 10:14, etc). Not only the writer of Hebrews, but Jesus (John 6:37-39), Paul (Eph 1:13-14), and others believed and taught that salvation was final. Another problem is that the writer of Hebrews was convinced that his readers were not in the situation he was warning against. So this view just does not work."

    drfuss: Many Christians do not consider Hebrews 6:4-6 to be addressing loss of salvation, but only addressing forfeiting salvation, i.e. deciding to stop trusting Christ. Many FreeWill Baptists use this verse to say that if a Christian forfeits their salvation (apostacy), that person will not or cannot come back to Christ. In general, the idea of losing one's salvation was not considered until John Wesley, many years after Arminius.
     
  10. Nicholas25

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    I was hoping this thread would get a lot of hits because I am truly in a place of learning and growth. Looking at Hebrews 6:4 when it talks about being companions with the Holy Spirit and tasting the heavenly gift, does that not sound like believers? How can a non-believer be a companion with the Holy Ghost?

    The FWB Church I grew up in taught a more works centered salvation. I was saved in 1999, but fell back into five years of wicked, consistent sin for almost five years. For a long time I thought I would have went to hell if I would died in those years. The fact that I was able to rededicate my life in September of 04 shows that Hebrews 6:4 doesn't apply in my life even if one looked at it from a FWB perspective. Some on here would say I did not truly get saved in 1999 because I returned to living a sinful life without remorse, and that I was truly saved in 2004, but I know that is not true. I truly am at a point were I do not know what I believe about the different salvation perspectives. I want to think that one can be truly saved and backslide and return to wicked sin, but they will return to Christ one day because they are a true child of his. Is there anything in scripture that teaches that? I hope to receive many responses. Thanks.
     
  11. MB

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    Hi Nicholas;
    The best way to Grow in Christ is to study God's word. While you're at it pray for wisdom my friend, God will give it to you.
    1st JN 3:9 tells us we who are saved or born of God cannot sin.
    And Paul says In Romans 7 that it is sin that dwells in our flesh that sins. It isn't us that sins but this doesn't mean we should allow it. We should be fighting for control over our flesh and make it do what our spirit's wish. It's a battle that will go on as long as we live in these bodies because we cannot escape our own sin nature.
    It's hard in this world to live a righteous life and even harder to try it alone. Sometimes new Christians try to do it themselves but it never works.
    The only thing that works is always with the help of God. We need to trust Him for that Help. We need to depend on Him and consider Him in everything we do.
    The only way I know of is to pray with out ceasing. Talk with God all your waking hours as if He is right there. He is right there with you now why not acknowledge Him and ask for His leading. Christians are sheep we follow the master Shepard. We don't want to loose sight of Christ. That's why we say keep your eyes on Jesus. It means to stay focused on What he would have us do about everything we do. We lean on Him depend on Him for everything and the more we thank Him for all He does the more we are blessed by Him.
    Never fear because God has promised to finish the work He began in us all.
    MB
     
  12. gb93433

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    Scripture is full of men and women who lack sinlessness. Moses killed a man. David had a man killed. Peter cut off a man's ear.
     
  13. canadyjd

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    Hebrews 6 is a hypothetical question that is being addressed by the author. "Now concerning someone who has tasted the heavenly gift.....and has fallen away...."

    The church has asked him the same question you are asking now. "What about all those people that had once made professions of faith but are now turning away (the context is that they are returning to Judism(sp))?"

    The author is clear....if a person could loose their salvation, they could never get it back because they would have to crucify Christ all over again. That is impossible.

    If you read a little further, you will see that the author says he is convinced of better things concerning them...things that accompany salvation. The things that accompany salvation include ministering to the brethren and perseverence in the faith.

    You seem to be approaching the issue the wrong way. You have come to a conclusion, and now want to find scripture to support that conclusion. As someone else suggested, study scripture and form your conclusions based on scripture.

    One final comment. We are not the salvation police. We cannot/should not be declaring anyone to be lost (or saved for that matter). The best we can do is point out that someone is living a life inconsistent with their profession of faith.

    It could be they had never been saved (their so-called "faith" was never salvific).

    It could be they are saved but have fallen into sin.

    In any case, we know that scripture tells us that God disciplines those that He loves. We don't put a time limit on God, but know that God's discipline is effective to accomplish what He desires.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. drfuss

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    drfuss: I think you may have missed my point about Heb. 6:4-6 and the FWB beliefs. Heb 6:4-6 is not talking about "wicked, consistent sin" as you referenced in your post. Heb 6:4-6 is addressing apostasy i.e. rejecting Christ as your Savior after being a Christian.

    I realize that some FWB churches tend to stress works more that they should; but the FWB theologians (Dr. Stephen Ashby of the FWB seminary) clearly states that works or sins have nothing to do with salvation. His position is that salvation can only be forfeited by apostasy.

    My personal belief concerning Heb 6:4-6 is that this was written to Jews that had practiced Judaism for years as adults, rejected Judaism, and trusted Christ as Savior and lived for Him for some time. The warning is about rejecting Christ as your Savior and going back to their previous religous beliefs.

    I don't believe Heb 6:4-6 applies to your situation for three reasons:

    1. You did not convert to Christainity after trusting in another religion.

    2. You did not reject Christ, but only grieved Him.

    3. Your works or sins have nothing to do with your salvation.

    Hope this helps.
     
  15. ray Marshall

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    There remaineth no more sacrafice for sin. I hate that verse, however it is in the Bible, so I must deal with it. Man can fall, just as Adam, but JESUS took care of that problem. You evidentally are a child of GOD regardless of what some may say. If you believe that "They shall never perish," then that is your answer. You may suffer for your disobedance the same way that David did but still he was a child of GOD. No way am I condoning a sinful act. I believe you have repented of your sin. No matter what people say, GOD takes care of your part in your sinning. I absolutely hate the idea that we sin wilfully but we have a savior that knows all regardless of what us little finite creatures think. Some may say, well if I believed that, I would go and do my sinning. Well my answer is: I sin more than I won't to. I won't to hold his banner up high. We as creatures deserve Hell. Praise GOD that he loves us more than to give us up to hell..Satan say's, condemn him, condemn him, but it is GOS that justifies. Pray that you do not fall into temptation again.
     

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