Yet another verse that doesn't seem to fit Calvinism...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Aug 6, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    1 Tim1: 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief...

    It seems that God might show mercy to those who act in ignorance. How does that fit in you dogma?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    As a matter of fact, this totally fits the Doctrine of Grace as understood by the majority of my people.

    Paul, regenerate, chosen unto salvation, unconverted, persecuting those of The Way, experiencing conversion on the road to Damascus, conversing with no one, retreats to Arabia for three years, then called into the ministry.

    Not struck down but shown mercy.

    Psalm 103:13-14 -

    Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

    For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

    Romans 11:28

    As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
     
  3. Skandelon

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    Oh, so God shows mercy to his elect when they act in ignorance? I get it.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Yes. In ignorance . You got it. In his mind, Paul was convinced he was serving God.
     
  5. Skandelon

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    Ok, I could see that. But there a lot of people out there who think they are serving God aren't their? I guess they just may not be elect so God may not have the mercy on them, right?
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    If Saul had died before his Damascus Road experience he would have dropped into Hell. Mercy was shown to Saul only after he responded to the Lord at his most memorable conversion. You can only receive mercy as and after you receive Jesus into your life.

    The alternate view is only an allusion to what people believe in as Divine Puppetery on the stage of human history. You know, the pick and choose theory.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Ray Berrian said:

    Then pray tell us, please answer the questions which you leave so conveniently unanswered when confronted with:


    </font>
    • What about babies in the womb who die for various reasons, including abortion ?</font>
    • what about those little children who die before they know how to 'choose Christ and accept Him' as one who knows right from wrong does ?</font>
    • What about those who have the intellect and mind of a 2 year old in bodies of 20 year olds ?</font>
    • What about Enoch and Elijah ? Did they get saved according to your proposed way ?</font>
    • What about Moses, Isaiah, all Old Testament saints ?</font>
     
  8. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Ray Berrian also said:

    And your view is that of a man pretending to be humble and fantasizing that he exalts God by saying His sovereignty ends where man's imagined free will begins.
     
  9. Skandelon

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    Ray,

    I have to disagree friend. It was merciful of God to blind Saul on the road, don't you think?
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    pinobaptist,

    You said, 'What about babies in the womb who die for various reasons, including
    abortion ?
    what about those little children who die before they know how to
    'choose Christ and accept Him' as one who knows right from wrong
    does ?
    What about those who have the intellect and mind of a 2 year old in
    bodies of 20 year olds ?'

    Ray: These are the ones that God covers in His own blood. Read II Samuel 23-24, Who He cares for unto eternal life.

    You said, 'What about Enoch and Elijah ? Did they get saved according to your
    proposed way ?'

    Ray: They were called prophets and they were saved because of their faith in the Lord God Jehovah. Don't you expect that prophets would finally be saved?

    You said, 'What about Moses, Isaiah, all Old Testament saints ?'

    Ray: The O.T. saints were saved by their faith in the Lord. He took care of their eternal destiny with Him.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Skandelon,

    You said, 'I have to disagree friend. It was merciful of God to blind Saul on the road,
    don't you think?'

    Ray: I personally think that the mercy of the Lord was shown because He saved his soul forever. When Saul said, "Lord, what will you have me to do?" In this moment Saul acknowledged the Lord, the Prince of life. [Acts 9:6 & 3:15 'the Prince of life]

    The blinding of Saul was His means to arrest him as to his evil of killing the saints, and of Saul's need of Jesus in his life. Saul caught the idea; there is no question.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    Ray Berrian said:

    Duh ? I've been there, and I don't find anything. I find the stories of David's mighty men, and the punishing of Israel, and the story of Araunah and the thresingfloor.

    And who was the Lord's instrument in bringing the gospel to them ? And what was the gospel in their day ? Remember, my question is not about their being saved it is about the fact that you always insist that you have to receive Jesus Christ in order to be shown mercy translated eternal salvation in your theology.

    Who preached to them ? How did they hear the words that were supposed to conjure up the inherent faith that you say all men have and which is necessary for fallen man to be saved ?

    The same question applies. On what basis will the Lord take care of their eternal destiny ? Who brought the "eternally saving gospel" to them that awoke their heretofore "saving faith" ?

    Face it, Ray. It's not going to hurt as much as you think it will, to borrow something someone wrote to me on this board.

    When you come down to it, your theology limits the power of God to the presence and ability of men, and therefore, everyday, you and your kind are the ones who presume to damn many souls to hell, not those of the Doctrines of Grace.
     

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