YHWH ALLAH

The Egyptians, Babylonians and many others at that time had many gods, Jacob. They did not have a single god. Often there was one chief god and then many below him with different names. The gods in Egypt were local and changed names and even qualities over time. I write about some of them in my article on my site on "The Serpent." Persia had Zoroastrianism and did not believe in the true god.

I am not sure what you mean about the Egyptians borrowing the foretelling of the Messiah. What are your referring to? There were Jews in Egypt at various times -- is that what you are talking about?

Daniel worshipped the true God when he was in Babylon. In fact, his ability to interpret the dreams of the king showed the king who the true God was. Nebuchadnezzar does recognize and praise God in Dan 4.34-37 after he was humbled by God. But it did not influence his son, Belshazzar, because Belshazzar "exalted" himself "against the Lord of heaven" (Dan 5.23). After being rebuked, Belshazzar was slain that night (v. 30) and Darius became King.

Darius turned to the true God after seeing Daniel and his friends survive the lion's den, and he made a proclamation to his kingdom for men to "fear and tremble before the great God of Daniel" (v. 26).

These kings only turned to the true God after God intervened through Daniel. They had been worshiping false gods.

But we know Babylon did not continue in worship of the true God and God condemns Babylon quite a bit in the Bible. And look at Iraq today.

Jacob, you seem to have a hard time believing that people can worship a false god. The fact is, most people do worship a false god because most people have rejected Christianity.


As someone else said earlier, just acknowledging God is not enough -- demons do that. One must acknowledge God as their King and Lord (speaking of OT days here).

 

Okay, I see what you mean now. The problem with this is I don't think anyone before Christ understood that Gen 3.15 foretold a Messiah. I think that it did, but we can only see that after the fact. Even if the Egyptians understood this (which I am sure they didn't), turning Pharaoh into a God on earth was wrong and was not a clear violation of worship of a man instead of God. No Pharaoh showed evidence of being the Messiah. Worship of the Pharaohs would be wrong no matter what the intentions or misunderstandings might be.

My guess is they used a word in their native tongue though they could have used the Jewish word. We would need a historical or Biblical scholar to answer that one.

Well, I commend you for that. You are asking questions and willing to get answers, and that is good.

 

I am troubled at saying the Allah and God are different. Let me defend this position by way of example.

I believe God to be a real person, just as real as, for example, Gearge Bush, the US president.

If you talk to a republican and a democrat about what George Bush is like, you could easily wonder if they are talking about the same person, so different could the descriptions come out to be. But when the president walked by, both would point and say "that is George Bush". They are talking about the same person BECAUSE

a) George Bush is a real person and
b) They both agree they are talking about the George Bush who is also president of the US.

In the same way, Christians and Muslims talk about God or Allah. They describe Him differently, so that one might wonder if they are talking about the same thing at all. But they are, in light of these facts:

a) God is real, and although He is literally beyond our ability to understand, He is the only God there is to talk about and

b) We all understand that God is the creator and sustainer of the Universe and all that exists.


I do not go so far as to say the Muslim people have a good understanding of what God is like; after all, I'm a Christian. But I do believe that it is legitimate to say that God and Allah both refer to the same being.

 

Posted by Paul of Eugene

Okay, Paul, but then where do we draw the line?

Is it okay to say the Goddess worshipped by some today is actually God? Or how about the Hindu god, Brahman? Or maybe the New Age God, who is usually impersonal and is part of creation? Or the Open Theist God who does not know the future?

It seems that we have to draw the line somewhere, and the attributes of the god in question, along with the worldview attached to the worship of tha god, is the only way I know of to do this. If one uses those criteria, then the god of Islam cannot be the God of the Bible.

What do you think?

 

Logical argument:

Person A says, “I worship the ONE God, whose name is God01.”
Person B says, “I worship the ONE God, whose name is God02.”

If we assume, there is ONE God and He requires that a person ‘worship’ Him in the ‘correct’ way, prescribed by the ONE God in order that the person be ‘saved’. If a person ‘worships’ the ONE God in the ‘incorrect’ way, then that person is ‘unsaved’.

Since there is ONE God, then God01 = God02 (ONE = ONE). The name(s) are irrelevant. It seems that what is relevant is that a person should ‘worship’ the ONE God in the ‘correct’ way in order to be ‘saved’. The question then becomes, “what does this ONE God want from me?”

If you follow this logic and it is correct (if its not then I’m confused), then would it make any difference if God01 = “YHWH” and God02 = “Allah”?

Sorry, this is just the way I think about things. You can see what a SCARRY place my mind must be!

Theological argument:

If one is a Christian, then he knows the ‘correct’ way and the Bible tells us how to ‘worship’ the ONE True God. If this is true, then Jews worshiping YHWH (without Jesus) are just as ‘unsaved’ as Muslims are 'unsaved' worshiping Allah (without Jesus). Of course, the Jews would tend to be more nearly 'correct'. This would be probably to their favor if God is a horse shoe player. I'll let God decide.

In Christ
Michael

 

Michael--see?

God has decided---from the eons of eternity past!! Here is His decision

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."---Philippians 2: 9-11

I bow my knee to the God of "no other name"----Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

Brother David

 

Let's imagine our new ager, our open theist, our follower of Brahmin, our muslim, all coming to judgement day. As Christians, we realize they will see God enthroned and Christ in the judgment seat.

I can see the new ager saying "Whoa - that's not the spirit I've been following!"

I can see the Brahmin saying "Hey - that's not Brahma!"

I can see the open Theist saying "Hey - so God really does know all things, after all!"

I can see the muslim saying "Hey - Allah really is one with Jesus after all!"

Just a little thought experiment.

 

Amen!
It seems to me, one reason this ONE True God requires our faith is that this faith can not be separated from correct concepts of his attributes, person, etc. as the Bible describes. For our belief/faith in the "Name" to match what He requires, we must realize His "Name" involves His true nature, character, magnificance and power. If we don't love and obey Him, then we really don't fully understand Him and his "Name" as we should.

Praise the Lord, He saves in spite of our (my) failures and ignorance. He promised we only need to place our full trust in and be found in "Jesus". ... Or is that "Iesous"? ... Or is that "Yeshua"? (Could not resist!)

In Christ
Michael

 

Posted by Paul of Eugene:

Okay, but why do you think Allah is more like God than the Hindu God, for example? Allah is considered arbitrary, remote, unknowable,is not known for love or mercy is known as a schemer (I consider that an evil trait), and most importantly, Allah has no Son. In short, Allah has few of the qualities attributed to the Biblical God except perhaps omnipotence and maybe omniscience (attributes shared by other false gods as well). As to the scheming:

The article quoted from above (at site of Answering Islam) is very interesting and goes in detail why Allah does not resemble the Biblical God.

 

Marcia, in a way it is a matter of symantecs. Merely quibbling over definitions of words. But it also goes towards how you will appear to a muslim when you are trying to witness to them instead of when you are trying to argue with them. I think it is kinder and will have a better effect to say "Allah is different from what you have believed Him to be like" than to say "Allah is a false God".

The other point is, do we really believe God is real an not dependent on how we describe Him?

If there truly is only one God - and we all misunderstand Him a little bit or a lot - then when we talk about the one, infinite, creator God we have identified the only one there is. We are talking about the same thing. Other attributes we believe in may be mistaken or correct, but that is not the same thing as understanding Who we are talking about.

George Bush is () a blessing or () a disaster for the country. But its the same George Bush, whichever box you check. Because there is, after all, a real George Bush we are trying to describe.

Its the same with God. There is a real God we are trying to describe. Therefore, Allah and God can refer to the same One.

 

To worship Allah means one must deny the Lord Jesus Christ---therefore, Allah is anti-christ and cannot be God!

He who denies the Son denies the Father of the Son! Islam denies the Son therefore is a denier of the Father! Islam and its god, Allah are anti-christ---and their followers are sons of Perdition!

Brother David

 

Then all the Arabic speaking Christians and Jews are gonna have a problem then, since Bibles that are translated into Arabic use the word "Allah" where the Greek uses "theos" (which in English Bibles is translated "God").

 

Point 1: Witnessing. This discussion was not about witnessing but whether the God of Isam is the God of the Bible (I realize Christian Arabs use "Allah" but by that they mean the Biblical God so that is not the issue). I would probably not say to a Muslim, you worship a false god just as I do not tell Wiccans or New Agers, you worship a false god -- I have other approaches, but that was not the issue.

Point 2: Quibbling over definitions. I don't think this is quibbling. Whether the god of one religion is the God of the Bible is an important question.

Point 3: Believing God is dependent on who we think he is. Of course I don't believe this and never said that! That is not the issue, either. So far, 3 red herrings.

Point 4: Misunderstanding God a little. I do not think this is about misunderstanding anymore than when someone believe in the Goddess it is misunderstanding, or when someone believes God is an impersonal force, it is misunderstanding. It is a false god, not just the misunderstood right God.

Point 3: George Bush being a blessing or disaster. This is not an analogy to what we are discussing because it is clear here that in both cases of your example, it is George Bush. What changes is one's opinion of him. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing whether the God of Islam, as described in the Koran, is the God of the Bible. It has nothing to do with one's opinion, but how that religion presents their god.

Description of some of attributes of Allah in Koran: arbitrary, scheming, no Son, his prophet is Mohammed, does not ensure his followers life in paradise, offers salvation by works, not known for love or mercy, deceptive.

That does not seem to match the God of the Bible.

It seems we are discussing more what the issues are not than actually dealing with the issue -- Is the God of Islam the God of the Bible or not? That is the issue. I think the evidence clearly shows the answer is no.

 

You know what, Marcia? Paul would agree with you. When he went to the Athenians, he did not condemn them for worshipping a false deity. Rather, he praised them for their sincere faithfulness, even though their faithfulness was out of ignorance. He praises them for seeking after the unknown God (as they referred to it), and then proceeded to tell them about the God they were seeking.

Maybe, maybe not. Clearly, the Jews don't worship God as we know him, but we seem to avoid calling the jews idolaters. Using that as a reference, I tend to give people of other faiths the benefit of the doubt. If they believe on one almighty god above all gods (which is what Jews and Muslims do), then I use the Pauline approach with the Athenians. I don't condemn, but I do tell them about Jesus, whom God sent.

I would also say no. I would also say that the God of the OT, sans the NT, is not the God of the Bible. Where I differentiate is between telling someone they believe in a false god, and telling them that their beliefs are out of misunderstanding.

 

If I had a pickle, I could call it a banana all day long and it would never make it any sweeter. The Bible clearly states that if one is not worshipping the true God, then they are worshipping Satan. They may call him the God of Abraham, they may call him YHWH, but that doesn't change who he is. The Allah the muslims worship is not our God. They may use the names of our God when talking about him, but he is clearly not our God.

 

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just following Paul's example.

Again, we're so quick to say Muslims don't worship our God, and e quick to say Mormins don't worship our God, but we'll do anything to avoid saying the Jews don't worship our God. I would never tell a Jew that he's worshipping Satan. Not only will I not get any converts that way, but I will likely push them further away from Christ than they already are. No thanks, I'll follow Paul's example and stick with it.

 

I just don't see any practical difference between saying

(a) Allah is really a different god that is said to be infinite and the creator but has other attributes incompatible with God or

(b) Allah is God - that is the meaning of the word Allah - but most users of that word are confused as to what God is like and describe Him erroneously as (etc etc)

Both statements could be made and defended logically. But (b) is kinder to those who use the word "Allah" and is therefore my choice.