You ain't gonna like losing

And it was President Bush who told America to go to the mall and shop.

 

Yep, even gave each of us some bucks (tax incentive) to spend while we're there...

 

If the OP is true, and I'm not saying it is, then a leader who is so out of touch with the times has no business being POTUS. Personally, I'm glad we can openly critize public office without the fear of reprimand.

love,

Sopranette

 

Well at least without "earthly" reprimand. Not sure how much God appreciates swipes at those "He" has chosen for those offices. Maybe we ought to think a little more about "critizing" God's elect. Just some food for thought.

 

I think we all need to pray to God to give us a Good Goverment. That stands stedfast in his word. We need to stop tell the Goverment what we want and ask God for it. Ps 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the NATIONs.

 

Excellent point. We will do well to remember this if either Clinton or Obama are elected as well.

 

I think you've missed the point of the OP. Most Americans are so self-absorbed and seekers of pleasure that they couldn't possibly unite as was described.

 

AMEN! God said His grace is sufficient. Why do we need to worry or try to influence God's decision. Why not just trust He is going to do what He said He was going to do and then trust that His grace in fact is sufficient.

He says He is the one that raises up rulers and brings them down. So by being actively involved in politics I have a 50-50 shot that I am going to be in open/active rebellion to what God has ordained.

Why would I want to take that chance? Just let God raise up whomever He desires to raise up so that His ultimate plan continues as is supposed and yea will continue!

 

I agree 100%.

I recall that it was a democrat who said:

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

The modern democratic party has turned that statement around:

It now reads:

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you"

The modern voter is only interested in what government can do for them. This is one reason why politicians promise the moon when they are running for office.

 

I don't believe Scripture teaches that we should be that passive. Whether it is in regard to election and salvation or human government, we have a job to do and we should do it. God's sovereignty is no excuse for laziness. God calls us to evangelize the lost and disciple the saved. God also calls us to be good citizens. The Lord Jesus paid taxes and if they were allowed to vote under Rome's rule I am sure He would have voted. God does choose rulers (etc). However God is not just the God of the ends, He is also the God of the means. He expects us to do our job.

 

Well, if they would only give me 2 or 3 million from that bridge to no where, I would keep my mouth shut.

BBob.............

 

JFK was to the right of any candidate running this year. He believed in self reliance, accountability, lower taxes and a strong military, and a balanced budget.

 

Are you denying that President Bush told America to go shopping?

 

Can you show me where Scripture teaches us to be actively involved in this world system? I've never found it. The only thing that I can find is we are to render unto Ceaser what is Ceasaer's and we are to pray for our leaders.

We are to be seeking the kingdom of God. Why would we need to be entangled in "this" kingdom? That doesn't make any sense.

Again God said He is the one that raises up rulers and takes them down. He doesn't need nor want our help as far as I can see.

Yes but again the only two mandates we have to rendering to Ceaser what is his and praying.

Nor is it a call for meddling either.

AMEN!

Certainly. Yet how many "Christians" purposefully disobey the speed limit every day?

Well I'm not willing to base my theology on speculation. I see no Biblical example that we are to vote. And we are not mandated to be entangled in this world system outside of the bare minimum.

Then why do I need to be worried with that process. Again I have a 50-50 shot that I'm going to vote in direct violation of His will. How many "Christians" voted for Bill Clinton either time? The majority of the "evangelicals" I'm sure did not. However that is EXACTLY the person that God wanted. So do you think God just winks at the fact that so many folks tried to thwart His plans? I don't think so. I don't think we get an atta boy or atta girl when we purposefully tried to do something contrary to God's will and plan.

Again if we are to do our job how do you explain all the "Christians" that "didn't" do their job when Clinton was elected?

 

==We are told, in Scripture, to be in subjection to our governments. We must pay taxes, give honor, and render to all what is due to them (1Pet 2:13-17, Rom 13:4-8). In America part of that is voting. Americans who do not vote are not doing what their government is asking them to do. In voting, the government is not asking us to compromise or deny the truth. Don't forget that it was God who created human government.

==Seeking his Kingdom, and being a citizen of heaven, does not mean that we are free to throw off our responsibilities here. What would have happened if William Wilberforce had taken your advice? Or John Newton? What would have happened. Both of those men were strong men of God. Both were Calvinists. Yet both took their responsibilities on this side of eternity seriously.

==Really? Then why has God, throughout all of history, put his people in positions of authority (ex: David, Daniel, Joseph, Wilberforce, etc)? God raised up the United States as a free nation which allows its citizens to to vote for its leaders. If God did not wish for people to vote why did He raise up America? Why were some of the founders of this country strong men of God?

What you are saying makes no sense Biblically, theologically, or historically.

==You don't believe voting is rendering unto Caesar what belongs to him? The form of government in the United States calls on its citizens to vote. Christians who live in the United States and refuse to vote are not obeying God or government.

==What does that have to do with voting? Two wrongs do not make a right.

==You will not find a direct "mandate" on that because in the ancient world such "free" states did not exist. The Roman Republic was probably about as close as they got. However the Republic was alive during the intertestamental period. By the time the New Testament opened up Rome was an Empire and the Roman Empire was not a Republic and it was not a Democracy. People of Jesus' day were not asked to vote. When no direct "mandate" can be found we have to take the principles of Scripture and apply them to the current situation. The principle of Scripture is that we are to obey the government unless it asks us to compromise or deny the truth. Since our government asks us to vote, and since voting does not cause us to deny the truth, we are to vote.

==I am not "worried" about it. However I do take my responsibilities seriously. God elects the means as well as the ends. God raised up the United States through the actions of people who wanted freedom from England's unfair tax system (towards the colonies). Some of those men were strong Christians who sought to do the will of the Lord. God used them, and others, to raise up a free nation. Something the world, to that point, had really never seen. So, you see, God elected the means as well as the ends. I think the issue you are having is that you see that God elects the ends but you are forgetting that God also elects the means. In this case part of "the means" is voting.

==That is very strained logic. We are to vote for the candidates who best represent the truth. God may choose, as an act of judgment, to send us poor leaders (etc). However God is not going to "judge" us for voting for the good leader even if that good leader loses.

==Wanted or appointed? God gave America what America deserved at that point in history. Btw, using your logic Christians should have voted for Hitler. I know you would never do that, but my point is that your logic is totally flawed. We are to vote for the candidate(s) who best respresents what we believe. If God chooses, as an act of judgment, to give us a poor leader than so be it. We are not, however, to vote for poor candidates just because we think that is who God will appoint (because we don't know).

==What? That is really twisted logic my friend. Nobody is trying to "thwart His plans".

 

I agree that this is a different country and this is a different war. The so-called liberals you like to rant and rave about would have been in WW2 along side their conservative friends. That war was fought for a good reason. Bush's war in Iraq is not. It's a waste of lives both American and Iraqi and a waste of money.

 

Dissenters didn't seem to have any concern for Iraqi lives prior to going in. I am sure that the primary conern for liberals is money. Liberals see this as a diversion, financially at least, from more federal entitlements. And for that they hate anyone who supports it.

During WWII I doubt there was quite the love fest for Federal entitlement programs. That ideology has grown quite a bit over the years. Also there was a much larger concensus about Patriotism and loyalty to the country.

Even during WWII there was strong dissent form those who were deeply rooted in socialism in England. Grahmn Green, Virginia Wolf, and George Orwell. It was less likely to be expressed in the US. During WWII socialism was seen as a negative in the US. And it is socialism that drives much ( not all) of the dissent today.

Suggesting that the dissent today is about the meritts of this war (while this is your right) compared to other past wars is incorrect. What it really is about is a socialist movement that has grown through fearmongering and class warfare.


I find it interesting that with all the calls for dissent against the war and constant complaining about a perceived suppression of that dissent that the liberals find themselves in a hypocritical situation as the work to destroy anyone who dissents against evolution or global warming.

 

It seems that in today's political climate in these United States that both sides on any issue attempt to demonize and destroy anyone who disagrees with their side.