You Are Chosen! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Sep 3, 2012.

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  1. OldRegular

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    Fellow Saints you are chosen, called, justified, and one day will be glorified, whether you believe it or not, whether you like it or not!

    *****************************************************************

    Whether you agree with or understand the Doctrines of Grace, [Which some of you relish in calling "Calvinism" or determinism.] you are saved only because, before the foundation of the world God chose you and all that are saved or ever will be saved, to Salvation in Jesus Christ; and that is a Scriptural truth.

    *****************************************************************

    Speaking to His disciples not long before the Crucifixion Jesus Christ said:

    John 15:16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


    John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    John 10:24-29
    24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
    26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.



    Ephesians 1:4-7
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


    In the above Scripture we see why God chose and predestinated some to Salvation in Jesus Christ; just in case some wonder.

    God predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    and To the praise of the glory of his grace.

    Election magnifies the Grace of God and demonstrates the absolute lostness of mankind!


    Romans 8:29, 30
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    And then the Apostle Peter tells us:

    2 Peter 1:5-11
    5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.[/u]


    I present the above with limited comment. They have been posted many times and I am sure they are familiar to you Saints. Furthermore, anything I might say would be superfluous and surely ignored.

    One thing is obvious in the posts of many of you Saints; they exhibit a pernicious animosity against the Doctrines of Grace. Is it just possible that you are kicking against the "pricks" or "goads" as Jesus Christ asked the persecutor Saul on the road to Damascus?


    Some of the above Scripture was posted by me on another thread!
     
    #1 OldRegular, Sep 3, 2012
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  2. psalms109:31

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    Proverbs 3 :
    5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
    6 in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

    7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the Lord and shun evil.

    John 6:44
    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    John 1:18
    No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    John 14:6
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    John 10:30
    I and the Father are one.”

    1 John 2:23
    No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

    John 14:24
    Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    John 6 :
    53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    Jeremiah 31:3
    The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying: “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.

    Zephaniah 3:12
    But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

    Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

    It does not matter who you are right now, what matters is you trust in God through Jesus Christ and He will change you. God choose us through His word. Do not depend on who you are, but who Christ is. Don't do this!

    Matthew 19 :
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


    As Spurgeon said,
    You are your own destroyers, because you reject Christ, because you despise the birthright and sell it for that miserable mess of pottage—the pleasures of the world.
     
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  3. Winman

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    No one disagrees that Christians are chosen or elected, what they disagree on is WHY. You believe persons were chosen unconditionally, non-Cals believe God chose those who would believe.

    We are chosen IN CHRIST and no one is in Christ until they believe in their lifetime.

    Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

    Paul said Andronicus and Junia were "in Christ before me". If all persons were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, Paul could not say this. No, no one is "in Christ" until they believe in time. Andronicus and Junia believed on Jesus before Paul did.

    So, how could we be chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world? Through foreknowledge. God foreknew who would believe in time and chose them.

    1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    God elected those he foreknew would believe. The scriptures clearly show God knows who will believe and who will not before it happens.

    Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would believe not. Therefore, by the process of elimination he also knew from the beginning who would believe.

    Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil, he also knew the other eleven were not. He chose the eleven to spread the gospel, he chose Judas because he foreknew Judas would betray him and fulfill prophecy.

    Non-Cals believe in election just like you, we simply disagree that it was unconditional as you believe.
     
    #3 Winman, Sep 3, 2012
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  4. OldRegular

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    Non-cals, as you call them are ignoring what Scripture tells us. All you need do Winman is believe what Scripture tell us all. We don't have the freedom to pick and choose what we believe even if you do have freewill!

    In the following Scripture we see why God chose and predestinated some to Salvation in Jesus Christ; just in case some wonder.

    Ephesians 1:4-7
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
     
  5. convicted1

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    This would ring true even in the corporate view of election, Brother.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Actually ...no it would not Willis...because individuals are called to be saints, and individuals are adopted as sons...one at a time
     
  7. Winman

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    I answered this, we are chosen "in him", that is, in Christ. Yet no man is in Christ until they believe in time. I showed from Paul himself that Andronicus and Junia were "in Christ before me" as Paul said. Paul's statement shows a man comes to be "in Christ" in time when he believes.

    No man is "in Christ" before they believe in time, so how could God choose us in him before the foundation of the world? I answered this, through foreknowledge. God foreknew who would believe in time and choose or elected these persons. This was the good pleasure of his will.

    Calvinists go out of their way to deny that election is based on God's foreknowledge of foreseen faith. Almost all Calvinist creeds state this. Why? Because then their doctrine would collapse. They write long articles to try to refute this belief;

    http://www.erictyoung.com/2012/06/07/sovereign-election-not-based-on-foreseen-faith-horatius-bonar/

    Now look at this reasoning this author uses;

    Our own elections refute this author's reasoning. Did our present Presidential candidates first elect themselves? YES, they accepted the nomination of their party.

    Let's say you apply for a job. The very act of going in and applying for the job is showing you chose or elected yourself for that job. If you did not choose yourself for that job, you would not apply.

    But it is the employer that must choose you as well. You may have chosen to perform that job, but unless the employer chooses you, you will not be hired. However, the employer cannot hire you unless you choose to apply for the job.

    So, there are always two parties in election. You choose to apply for a job, or you choose to accept the nomination for President. But then the employer must choose you, or the people must elect you for the thing to be accomplished in full.
     
    #7 Winman, Sep 4, 2012
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  8. Iconoclast

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    Because it is a false understanding of scripture, both a wrong use of the words and terms by those void of understanding.Of course the speak against such obvious error!
     
  9. Winman

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    False, all elections involve two parties. If Romney or Obama declined the nomination of their party, then neither could be elected by the people. They must choose or elect themselves to run for the office before the people can vote and elect them. This is how elections work.
     
  10. quantumfaith

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    A lot of our confusion about the doctrine of election comes as a result of not engaging the Old Testament and the election of Israel or the election of Jesus.

    Marinate on the words of theologian Christopher J.H. Wright,

    It has to be said that much of the debate over the meaning of election, predestination, reprobation and associated concepts has been carried on at a level of systematic abstraction and binary logic that seems oblivious to the way the Old Testament speaks of God’s choice of Israel. Between election in the Hebrew Scriptures of Jesus and election in the foundations of theological systems there sometimes seems to be a great gulf fixed. The Mission of God, pg. 262.

    Here are some of his insights from page 263 of The Mission of God:

    “The election of Israel is instrumental, not an end in itself. Israel was chosen as the means by which salvation could be extended throughout the earth. Israel as a nation was chosen to be the vehicle in which God’s mission would be extended to the whole world.” Not every person in Israel was saved; like Abraham before them, they had to place their faith in God to be saved.

    “The election of Israel is fundamentally missional, not just soteriological.” According to Wright, “If we allow the doctrine of election to become merely a secret calculus that determines who gets saved and who does not, we have lost touch with its original biblical intention.”

    Marinate on that,
     
  11. HeirofSalvation

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    Thought provoking post!! :wavey::thumbs:
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    Isaiah 44
    Israel the Chosen

    44 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
    Israel, whom I have chosen.
    2 This is what the Lord says—
    he who made you, who formed you in the womb,
    and who will help you:
    Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant,
    Jeshurun, [Jeshurun means the upright one, that is, Israel.] whom I have chosen.


    John 6:56
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

    John 15 :
    5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

    1 John 2:
    19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

    20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

    24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

    26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

    Ephesians 1:13
    And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    Hebrews 6:
    10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

    Hebrews 3 :
    12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::godisgood:

    Thanks Icon, I could not bring myself to disagree with an Old Regular Baptist in public!
     
    #13 OldRegular, Sep 4, 2012
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  14. OldRegular

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    Winman, You are trying to explain spiritual truths with secular examples. Don't work. God has all the votes in choosing those He will save!
     
  15. OldRegular

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    I agree completely with Wright's remarks that the election of the nation Israel as the means to bring Jesus Christ into the world. I have said so on this Forum. That being said the Apostle Paul corrects some further remarks by Wright.

    Romans 9:6, 7
    6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


    Romans 11:1-8
    1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


    And then there is this:

    Romans 8:31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
     
  16. AresMan

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    There is a difference between "chosen in Christ" and being "in Christ." God choose His people on behalf of Christ (i.e. for the sake of Christ's work). However, chronologically, Andronicus and Junia were in Christ (i.e. experiencing the benefits of Christ's work in their lives as believers) before Paul.

    This is what you are not understanding. God chose His people to be in Christ "before the foundation of the world." Because of this, God will also regenerate them at a certain point in time in their lives so that they are positionally in Christ and experience the benefits of a relationship with Him.

    Winman, I have answered this argument many times, yet you keep parroting it as if it stands.
    "Foreknowledge" here is NOT merely a prescience of factual knowledge. It is a term of relationship. If God is the subject and a person (not the person's output) is the object, the word ginwskw or any of its cognates is a term of relationship.

    Joseph did not "know" Mary until she gave birth to Jesus (Mat 1:25). Did Joseph just learn facts about Mary after Jesus was born?
    Jesus "knows" His sheep and He gives them eternal life (John 10:27). Does Jesus possess mental facts about His sheep, or does this mean that He has a relationship with them?
    Jesus tells reprobates at the judgment "I never knew you." (Mat 7:23) Does this mean that Jesus was factually unaware of the reprobates until their judgment?

    No. For God to know someone is for Him to have a relationship with him.
    Adding the prefix pro does not turn the meaning of ginwskw from that of intimacy to that of mere factual information. It just means that God fore- relationshipped His elect. He chose them individually "before the foundation of the world" to be His people in Christ and to experience His fatherly love.

    Compare 1 Peter 1:2 with Romans 8:29. "For whom he did foreknow..." It doesn't say that He foreknew they would believe of their own autonomous free will. It says that He foreknew them. It is an transitive active verb along with all the other transitive active verbs: called, justified, predestined, glorified.

    Just because the word is nominalized in 1 Peter 1:2, it does not mean that its meaning can be changed.

    This is not the same context. I would also propose that "from the beginning" is not referring to "the foundation of the world," but rather to the context of His calling these disciples.

    The word for "knew" here is a form of eido, not ginwskw. It more often has to do with factual knowledge than ginwskw. eido can also mean "to see."

    Yes, we observe that Jesus chose all these disciples to fulfill His purposes, even the betrayer. Jesus "knew [eido] from the beginning [when He chose them] who would believe and who would betray Him." They were all chosen for a particular purpose. eido is not quite the same as ginwskw, and let's not confuse the two.

    When a person is "known" in both Greek (ginwskw) and English, this means some form of relationship. Now, if God foreknows people, that means He fore-relationships them. To proginwskw a person does not mean to "foresee his faith." It means to know him personally "beforehand."

    God foreknowing (choosing to enter into a relationship with) a person before that person exists must mean that God elects that person effectually to be an object of His love logically before that person makes it mutual. We love Him because He first loved us. His love is the cause and our love to Him is the effect. There is no backwards causation in any of the passages you cited.
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Thanks AresMan for a very insightful post.

    Your view on Chosen in Jesus Christ and being in Jesus Christ are the same as mine. We are Chosen in Christ because He will pay the penalty for our sins. We are not in Jesus Christ and He is not in us until we are regenerated, saved! Until that time as the Apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:3 we were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    If we believe in the omniscience of God it is obvious that he knows who will be saved. Therefore, foreknew or foreknowledge as a reference to his omniscience is superfluous. Your remarks about the Greek were very helpful. I can use Strongs or BDB but that doesn't necessarily explain everything, particularly if you have no know knowledge of Greek grammar.

    Sometimes I believe that when we talk about the eternal purpose of God in salvation we are in water over our head and can't swim. I have always believed that salvation is an individual transaction between man and God and still do. God saves people one at a time and He knows those He saves.
     
  18. HeirofSalvation

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    It easily could.......but knowing the difference would require knowledge of all types of weird and "vain philosophies" of men that you personally use all the time, but are basically ignorant of.....it is perfectly consistent with a "corporate view" as he said....but you are engaged in "vain philosophies" which discredit it in your own mind, They don't, and if you bothered to do a little ground-work, you would know otherwise. The mere fact that they are chosen "individually" as you claim, is not a sufficient defeater of the "corporate view" he suggests...You are simply unaware of how much vain and godless philosophy you engage in....The difference between you and most others is... you engage in it rather poorly....one can be "elected" "BOTH" "corporately" and "individually" at the same time...they are simply not..........in the actual Universe our Sovereign and Almighty God created, contradictories. You think they are...and you are also wrong. And it is your vain philosophical conceits which cause you to think thus, not a clear teaching from Scripture, as you like to claim.
     
  19. Benjamin

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  20. OldRegular

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    You are correct Icon. God was certainly not talking about corporate election when He had the Apostle Peter write the following:


    2 Peter 1:5-11
    5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


    When Peter said:

    10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


    he obviously was talking to individuals!
     
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