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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by All about Grace, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Maybe if I had time I could find a direct command, but here's a verse to consider:

    That's the kind of thing that I have in mind. I do not know of a better thing to show unbelievers than Christ's glory, primarily in His life, death and resurrection. To some it is a stumbling block, and to some it is foolishness, but to those who see it as truly glorious it brings salvation.
     
  2. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    All about Grace,

    I am on the cliff now as I post! I know I need to be slow to speak more often. I do need much work in many areas.

    May God bless you and your congregation!

    Regards, KGB
     
  3. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    gb93433,

    Word usage is important if we are all going to communicate with each other.

    Merriam Webster says this about atonement;

    1 obsolete : RECONCILIATION
    2 : the reconciliation of God and man through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ
    3 : reparation for an offense or injury : SATISFACTION

    Now if it is true that Jesus Christ has atoned for every human being that will or has ever existed.......no human being will go to hell.

    You may say "why is that"?

    Because atonement is a word that was invented by Tyndale I think......it has the distinct, precise, and certain meaning of being reconciled.

    In the knowledge of God, what has been done is as good as been done. We are in a realm of time...there is no escape from it.

    In Gods view all things will come to pass as He wills them to come to pass.

    So even though not all of the body of Christ (Church body) has been brought to Him in time.......it is already purposed to take place.

    If what has been purposed to take place will take place out of necessity........how can we say that Jesus atoned for all people when we know that many will end up in Hell?

    The answer is quite simple.

    We are all by nature children of wrath according to our first birth. All humans excluding none. This has been, and is Gods plan "A" from eternity past that all would be bound in disobedience.

    There is no free-willing it away. All people are born with a natural hatred and rejection of God. It is the fallen state of mankind. Where men are fallen they are not free.

    It was, and has been, His determined will to save some people out of their fallen state.

    These people are atoned for.

    That means that the wrath of God has been placed on a willing Jesus Christ at the hands of sinful men. He who knew no sin became sin for us.

    Who are the us? Sinners! All sinners? No not exactly.....because many sinners will willingly reject Jesus Christ.

    We also were willing to reject Jesus Christ until we were shown grace.

    The fact is....if ALL people excluding no one is atoned for......there exists no more offence.

    This our sins have been forgiven. Even the sin of unbelief is taken away. Who takes it?

    Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

    You do understand unbelief is sin correct?

    If all sin is or will be taken away....there will be no more unbelievers and no one will be in Hell paying for sin if they have no sin.

    We are given a view of the future;

    Revelation 5;

    "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

    Is that understandable?

    Let me know.....God bless, KJB
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Salvation is in Jesus Christ. When he died, he died for the sins of the world. Hebrews says it was a one time sacrifice. Just because Jesus died and secured salvation does not mean every person will believe.

    I would assume that you believe Jesus died for no one. Because no one is born believeing. Then at the moment one believes Jesus died for them. In a practical sense and theological sense that would very much parallel Catholicism where Jesus is sacrificed over and over.
     
  5. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Agreed. I am not talking about a church focusing on one area to the exclusion of the other. I am simply talking about strengths. Piper's church is far different than Warren's. Both are involved in evangelism and teaching, yet Bethlehem baptizes about 30 people a year and Saddleback will baptize over 2k. That doesn't mean Warren is not concerned with teaching or that Piper is not concerned with evangelism. Just different churches - neither being fully right or fully wrong. Just different.

    As you might guess, our fellowship would fall more into the Warren type church than the Piper type. Those who approached me Sunday were more of a Piper persuasion. Therefore they would be able to use their gifts more effectively or sit and learn more effectively in a Piper type church.

    Perhaps my hyperbole came across a little strong. Actually I can't help but be around them. They are everywhere! I actually enjoy talking with them when I have time. I love throwing them for a loop when I talk about the human system known as Calvinism. Those are fighting words for the die hards. Oh well. I am Calvinistic and my education usually allows me to understand their position better than they do. I am quite the paradox -- God-centered yet extremely flexible in my methods and style of ministry.

    All right ... I will not vote them off to the island just yet. I will just commend a good Reformed Baptist or Sovereign Grace church for them to attend. ;)
     
  6. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    How does this differ from sharing Christ crucified in a way people understand clearly?
     
  7. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    gb93433,

    Please be ever so kind and re-read my post again. I am aware there can be misunderstanding on these boards but I assure you I made a valid claim.

    You said;

    Just because Jesus died and secured salvation does not mean every person will believe.

    I am not trying to be rude.....but what in blazes is that suppose to mean?

    If He died and secured salvation, how is it secure if no one might believe? How is that secure in any way shape or form? Secure for who?

    I would assume that you believe Jesus died for no one. Because no one is born believeing. Then at the moment one believes Jesus died for them.

    Well you assume wrongly on the Biblical position as well as mine.

    John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb. It was not due to free-will or free-choice. However, I can also assure you that John was a human like you and I and was of a fallen nature.

    I am certain that Jesus Christ died and secured salvation for His Body, which is His Church. It is not all gathered together yet in the sense of time, but in all reality as far as God is concerned they are a finished and done work of His. All will take place in His due time. I am not saying He is sacrificed over and over.

    Here is some portion of Scripture showing how the minds of unbelievers are. They are not free but rather bound in blindness.

    It further shows how believers are made into believers. God commands light to shine in darkness and lo and behold it does!

    If He does not command light to shine in darkness......unbelievers remain unbelievers!

    It is not complex theology. None the less though, believing is a miracle wrought on by the pure and undeserving grace of God.

    Belief is granted to undeserving sinners such as you and I.

    And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

    For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    There are many people that will preach about their free-will or good-will or great will-power and all other kinds of things about themselves and how they are so clever and wise to make all the right choices in "seeing the Gospel".

    As for me I will not preach about myself in any such way.

    I find that I as a mere man was subjected to the same ruthless and destructive bondage that Satan can inflict....and I was bound willingly!

    I did not even know I was lost until I was found.

    I KNOW beyond a doubt that it was God and His grace that commanded; "Light shall shine out of darkness,"........It is He who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    All Glory to God!

    And for those He chooses to leave in the state of blindness, they have no choice but to remain in the state of blindness....and none of them will be there against their will......they will stay there all too willingly!

    And still All Glory to God!

    His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    I hope that is much more clear now.

    God bless, KJB
     
  8. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    How does this differ from sharing Christ crucified in a way people understand clearly? </font>[/QUOTE]It doesn't, necessarily. It depends on what you mean by "sharing Christ crucified". That can be done in a way that makes much of Christ and honors Him, or in a way that makes much of us. I think that dishonors Him.

    This is what bothers me about churches that label themselves as "seeker-sensitive" or meeting "felt needs" of that kind of thing (and I am not saying that your church does that). I think they are starting at the wrong place. Different methods and styles can be fine as long as the glory of Christ remains central. There are many, many aspects of the gospel that we could focus on and many, many benefits for those who believe but none greater than this. When Jesus began gathering followers that's how He did it.
     
  9. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    whatever,

    Many of your posts are so very well put together. I want you to know it is very encouraging to see them.

    Here is a site that has a writing by Arthur Pink. I know you will enjoy it as much as I have.

    http://www.the-highway.com/reg1_Pink.html

    Let not our hearts be troubled, regards, KJB

    [​IMG]
     
  10. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    All about Grace,

    May I ask what church you pastor out in the west?

    I am in northern Arizona close to Kingman.

    Regards, KJB
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You claim atonement ONLY pertains to salvation? Why not check out what atonement is in the context being used before your snide remarks.
    Atonement
    Noun
    1. Compensation for a wrong.
    2. The act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing.

    Yes Jesus will raise those he DRAWS (note: not drags). In 12:32 Jesus says He draws ALL MEN. This is not universalism, so this is where you have to compare Scripture to Scripture and RIGHTLY divide the Word, something you refuse to do because it destroys your doctrine (i.e. sin, hate).
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Yes webdog but He said Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

    The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for. Now where do you see that Jesus atoned for them?

    Never will Eli's house be atoned for by sacrifice or offering. Where's the problem but your doctrine is blown. :cool:

    Still He drew Himself did He, why don't you answer? You don't answer because since it is a bit stupid to think He drew Himself then your 'all' is meaningless to you isn't it?

    This is the point by the way. Did He draw all men? Yes you say. Then He drew Himself? What do you say?

    It 's a denial of plain scripture. I apologise for my snide remarks.

    john.
     
  13. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    I hear this accusation often but in reality it is a subjective analysis. What may appear to "make much of us" may not be intended that way. And what may appear to "make much of Christ and honor Him" may not (can anyone say Pharisees). That is why style and method take a back seat. This is a motives issue. Style is secondary. As a matter of fact in my experience many who claim to "make much of Christ" in their worship and preaching do so with such pride, arrogance, and exclusivism (my way is the only way) that I have to wonder how much Christ is honored.

    Who is the human determinier of what honors Christ and what does not?

    I would not hesitate to say we seek to be seeker aware or seeker sensitive (as opposed to seeker insensitive or unaware). Our church started in the midst of a culture of unbelievers. We have no choice but to reach unbelievers. That is our audience and culture. Therefore to be seeker insensitive would not only be foolish but just wrong.

    As far as felt needs, again the church would be foolish not to address needs. Jesus did it. Preaching against "felt needs preaching" has become popular among certain groups. I have had extended conversations with several of the leaders of this group who claim "felt needs" is not a good starting point. That is a whole other topic that I would be happy to discuss. For now I will simply say that preaching must address both felt needs and hidden needs (needs an unbeliever may or may not be aware of). What is important is connecting God's truth to everyday life. I simply find that hard to do if I am not aware of the felt needs in my community.

    The goal must always be to connect people to God through Christ. If we fail to engage our audience by engaging their needs, I believe we fall short of our mandate. It does not matter how true something is if it is not PERCEIVED as true. For that reason, we make the truth relevant (I like Stott's image of the preacher between two worlds).

    Methods that bring people to Jesus Christ are what is important. Christ is most glorified when He is proclaimed as Lord ... I believe this most effectively happens when people cross the line of faith. That is our goal -- use whatever means we can w/o compromising the truth of the gospel itself to help people come to faith in Christ. And that in my opinion is when Christ is glorified.

    (Just a note to those Calvinists ready to jump on the fact God calls, etc., obviously I am speaking in a way that assumes the work of the Spirit in all of this).
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Go back to Leviticus anc check out the Law, breaking of the Law, and offerings and sacrifices. You imply that offerings and sacrifices in the OT equals salvation. Prior to Christ's death, this was the only way for atonement for sin. This is what Eli's situation was, not eternal salvation, but breaking of the Law which God did not let Eli's family get off. Do you believe Jesus died for Moses? Why did God do the same thing to Moses as Eli's family? As Lloyd says, context rules!

    Jesus is God. All men are not. I will use your Jacob / Esau hate tactic:
     
  15. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    I have not been following your conversation extensively, but I would add here that it is not as "stupid" as saying "all" does not mean "all".

    Another passage where Calvinists are forced to interpret the Scripture in light of their system.
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I have not been following your conversation extensively, but I would add here that it is not as "stupid" as saying "all" does not mean "all".

    Another passage where Calvinists are forced to interpret the Scripture in light of their system.
    </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG]
     
  17. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Ok All about Grace you answer the question. Jesus is God is what webdog came up with thus denying His Humanity for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... Col 2:9.

    Is Lloyd the one you follow then man? What thing did God do for Moses that He did to Eli's kin?

    Go back to Leviticus... Doesn't matter about that does it because no matter what happened they did not get an atonement for their sins and that means Hell. Or you say Jesus did atone for them but God said they would never get a sacrifice for those sins. But if they did not still you say Jesus atoned for them? Then they did get an atonement? They did? After God searing on oath that no sacrifice would be offered. :cool:

    Keep it up man I'm beginning to think I've gone mad or something.

    Don't work does it? :cool: For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... He da man man. :cool:

    john.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Johnp, I never denied Christ's humanity...refrain from dishonesty.

    Go back to 1 Samuel and show me where atonement for sin is the same thing as salvation, or where God banished Eli's family to hell.
    I thought that back when you said God is the author of sin!
     
  19. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello webdog.

    Maybe so. So Jesus is a man. Did He draw Himself or not? Yes or no in English please. :cool:

    john.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Being both God and man, I fail to see the relevance of your point. Every word spoken by Christ was from both God and man.
     
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