You Fool!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Paul33, Aug 25, 2005.

  1. Paul33

    Paul33
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    Jesus said that if you call someone a fool you are in danger of the fire of hell.

    I explained to my congregation that calling someone a fool in the OT was like saying "God condemn you" to someone and that if you did this you yourself were in danger of being condemned by God.

    Later, someone said I swore in the sermon. That's another story, though.

    Would you agree that calling someone a fool in the day of Jesus from a Jewish perspective is the equivalent of wanting God to condemn someone to hell?

    [ August 27, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  2. TCassidy

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    No. I am of the opinion that Jesus was saying that calling Him a fool regarding His claim to be the Messiah placed one in danger of hell fire. [​IMG]
     
  3. FundamentalDan

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    Interesting, Doc Cass. Any particular reason? I have never really heard that verse explained or even studied it, sad to say.
     
  4. Paul33

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    The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

    The fool in the OT appears to be the one who does not believe in God and is therefore condemned.

    Those who hate wisdom love death.

    The text of Matthew clearly indicates that if you call someone a moron you will be brought before the sanhedrin, but if you call someone "a fool" you are in danger of the fires of hell.

    I'm not persuaded, TC.
     
  5. webdog

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    If all men instinctively know about God (Romans 1), isn't the "fool" that says in his heart "there is no God" only just being foolish? This wouldn't deserve death. You can claim to be atheist, but all men to a degree believe there is a God.
     
  6. Paul33

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  7. TCassidy

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    Christ said in verse 17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." It was understood by His hearers that this was a claim to being the Messiah. Then in verse 20 he tells them their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.

    He then says "whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:" - notice who the man is angry at, his brother.

    Then, "and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:" - notice again who the man calls "raca" which is the Aramaic word for "fool." His brother.

    Then Jesus says, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Notice He does not say who the man is speaking too as He did in the other two cases. In this case He is referring back to verse 17 to His claim to be the fulfiller of the Law, which the Jews understood to be a claim that He was the Messiah.

    He is saying that you can be angry with your brother, and even call your brother a fool, and you might be in trouble with earthly authorities, but if you hear His claims to being the Messiah and call Him a fool for making that claim you will be in danger of hell fire.
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    Only two instances of Jesus using "fool"

    Matthew 5 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

    and

    Luke 12 (parable) "The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: and he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
    But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

    Am assuming your reference of the "fool" is to the sermon on the mount, not the parable.

    So you think this "brother" that Jesus pulls in for this particular short section is somehow "Himself"? And that this passage then is NOT teaching about conduct toward others, but to the Messiah? Hebrew grammatical construct would not see a change in focus - parallelism here is to "the brother", teaching them how to live in society. Nothing messianic.

    I have never heard or seen that. Seems the context to be very much AGAINST that. Jesus is teaching the people, not pharisees. They are not the enemy; they are being instructed in ethical living (Mt 5).
     
  9. Paul33

    Paul33
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    Agreed, Dr. Bob.

    I see nothing in the text that is messianic. You have heard it said long ago, but I say . . .

    The context seems clear to me. We are not to hate our brother. We are not to desire that he burn in hell. But even more grievous is to usurp the perogative of God and denounce our brother as a "fool." In the parable, it is God who pronounces the rich man to be a fool. Therefore, anyone who call his brother a "fool" is in danger of the gehenna of fire because he is invoking condemnation upon his brother. He hates his brother so much that he wants God to damn him to hell, and it is that very hatred that puts him in danger of the gehenna of fire.
     
  10. TCassidy

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    Uh, no. I don't think I ever said that or implied it in any way. I said in both the former cases He tells us who is being spoken of (a brother) but in the last He does not.
    Both. You call your brother a fool and you will answer to the council, but if you call Him a fool, in reference to his Messianic claims, you are in danger of hell fire.
    And you don't think verse 17 is in the immediate preceding context?
    Well, I suppose if you remove verse 17 from the context then you might be right.
    Yes, I know. It matters not if you are a Pharisee or not, if you deny the Deity of Christ you are in danger of hell fire.

    Do you, as a 5 point Calvinist, really believe that a person who calls another person a fool will lose his salvation and be sent to hell?
     
  11. Paul33

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    The context is about hating your brother.

    The Pharisees were focusing only on the outward behavior. Jesus forced them to focus on the inner attitudes of the heart. In this case, hatred. A hatred so strong that they would invoke "God" to bring about their desires.
     
  12. Charles Meadows

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    Paul33,

    I tend to agree with you on this one.

    Jesus mentioned that murder is a serious offense (true enough). But this IS a discussion of ethics. And as such I think Jesus points out that the inward feelings are just as important as the outward actions. In the eyes of the legal system you could want desperately to kill a certain person but as long as you didn't do it you would be blameless! Not so with God as the judge. The inward feelings are just as bad as the outward actions they produce.

    I don't necessarily see the three sayings of Jesus (raca, you fool, etc) as being separate but perhaps three repetitions of the same thing.
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    If I am angry with Thomas without a cause, I shall be in danger of the judgment; if I say to Thomas,'Raca', I shall be in danger of the council; but if I say, 'Thou fool', I shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Who am I talking to? Thomas, obviously in all three clauses.

    What am I talking about? My calling him names.

    There is no change of person, context, focus antecedent or any such. It is talking about 3 stages of progressive hatred.

    Seems way more convoluted to try to bring a messianic meaning into this.
     
  14. TCassidy

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    Okay, Bob, whatever you say. I will just pretend that verse 17 isn't there. [​IMG]
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Glad you agree! :rolleyes: And I don't REALLY hate you [add "much" icon].

    Serious question (this IS a good thread) now - why would you return to v 17 when it is in another paragraph and in no way tied to the new context of what Jesus was saying?

    Insisting that it is somehow tied back seems to labor it.
     
  16. James_Newman

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    Bob is right. Why should we try to make the verse say something it doesn't say? Hell makes us uncomfortable? It should. We have much the same testimony elsewhere in the bible.

    1 John 3:14-15
    14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
    15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
     
  17. webdog

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    Why would scripture say in one place the only unfogiveable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but then calling someone a fool is similar?
     
  18. James_Newman

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    Where did it say that calling your brother a fool was unforgiveable? I know that nobody in this thread would agree with me, but I believe that Jesus warns us in several places of the real danger of a believer going to hell, not eternally, but temporarily during the millennial kingdom. This has nothing to do with our eternal salvation which has already been accomplished on the cross. Jesus warning us to love our brothers or be in danger of Hell fire is consistent with everything else He taught.

    The unforgiveable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in my understanding Jesus was talking about not believing on Him. The witness of the Holy Spirit attested to the fact that He is the Son of God. To deny this (He casts out devils by the prince of the devils) is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who does not believe on the Son is condemned to eternity in the lake of fire. A believer will not be among them.
     
  19. TCassidy

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    Well, let's see. The "Sermon on the Mount." Okay, I see your point. No context, no progression, just a lot of unconnected, disjointed, one liners. Gotcha. [​IMG]

    Is that how you preach? :D
     
  20. TCassidy

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    <Twilight Zone Music> More nonsense from Joey Faust and the very confused people at Kingdombaptist. :(
     

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