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You just don't UNDERSTAND!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, May 1, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is a distinction that needs to be drawn between the doctrine of Original Sin, which I and most non-Cals would affirm, and the doctrine of "Total Depravity" which I and some non-Cals would refute.

    To affirm one is not a blanket affirmation of the other. Admitting that all men are born in need of a savior and enemies of God, is not equal to affirming the concept that God's appeal to be reconciled to Him is somehow insufficient to bring reconciliation.
     
    #41 Skandelon, May 2, 2011
  2. Old Union Brother

    Old Union Brother New Member

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    EWF said:
    Amen!

    I was lost ruined and undone with out God or his Son.....A dead man walking around....Blind, deaf and unable to speak. He resurrected me to walk in the newness of life. He gave me eyes to see His works, ears to hear his word and a tongue to speak the wonders of his grace.
     
    #42 Old Union Brother, May 2, 2011
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Where you born blind, deaf and unable to speak?
     
    #43 Skandelon, May 2, 2011
  4. Old Union Brother

    Old Union Brother New Member

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    Skandelon:

    All I'm going to say is that when I was a sinner I could not see the things of God, I couldn't hear the things of God, and I couldn't speak of his grace. You can take that ever how you want too.... I have full assurance in my experience of Grace. For as it is written:

    (1Pe 3:15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

    (1Pe 3:16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

    The hope that is in me is Christ Jesus. Him being crucified and and shedding the atoning blood on the cross and being resurrected for a lost sinner like me. I am so thankful for his Grace and mercy because if I had got Justice I would have been cut down and be bound for a lake of fire. I was like the Psalmist:
    (Psa 40:2) He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
     
    #44 Old Union Brother, May 2, 2011
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    According to scripture rather than the perception of what you experienced, we know that men aren't born blind, deaf and unable to understand...

    Acts 28:26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

    Only those who are hardened/calloused are blind, deaf and unable to understand, "OTHERWISE they can see, hear, understand and repent." This is not a condition from birth, but clearly something they became or grew into over a period of time. The Jews were hardened and thus blind and deaf, but in contrast to their condition the Gentiles "will listen."

    If all are born in the same condition (deaf/blind) then why would scripture make this distinction?
     
    #45 Skandelon, May 2, 2011
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Interesting.....[edit - personal attacks are not permitted]. Rather than engage the post you do a little drive -by, post usually with an accuasation,like



    Anyone who differs with you ,you snipe at and call names's. I answer part of the original post, you do not like it,so you call me names.
    I answer your attack in the Lords day post and you dis-appear.
    If you want to interact, disagree, debate....fine. Try to do so scripturally.
     
    #46 Iconoclast, May 2, 2011
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    skan....
    That would be correct. It does not match what I see in scripture at all,in fact
    the exalting of unsaved man, and his supposed abilities is opposed to scripture. I try to imagine what a person is thinking when they hold these false ideas.
    I think they are sincere,trying to make sure that everything is what "they would define" as fair when they say things like:God would never, or My God would never; elect, decree, ordain, destroy, punish,predestinate.

    like who? give a real example and I will demonstrate to you what I posted in 18 is so.
    Romans one teaches that all natural men are "truth suppressors".....they need new birth!
    They are without excuse. They willing supress true knowledge...that tells me that they cannot understand it accurately at all.


    If they had God given understanding, they would repent and believe.
    As it is, they invent humanistic philosophy, science, psychology.....to supress the true saving knowledge...so they have a man centered religion rather than God given....saving understanding of truth.

    [/QUOTE]
    Yes skan,,, this is the post I was thinking of..Allan responded, and I agreed with Allan on this...
    THe last part about the light switch.I think you need to explore that some more.
     
    #47 Iconoclast, May 2, 2011
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is a difference in believing it "doesn't match" and not even understanding the Arminian perspective, right?

    If that is what you think we believe, you are right, you don't understand it.

    Any non-Calvinistic scholar... CS Lewis or Adam Clarke or Wesley? Did none of them really understand Calvinism? If not, why not? Did God just not grant them understanding?


    I noticed you neglected to quote the two verse in between the ones you quoted. Here let me:

    19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    Notice it says that his divine nature and eternal power has been "clearly seen" and "understood." In fact, that is why they are 'without excuse.' You view gives them the perfect excuse: "God didn't want me to be saved and thus didn't give me what I needed to even understand truth."
     
    #48 Skandelon, May 2, 2011
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Have not read much of cs lewis.
    Adam Clarke,Wesley......Some of these men concentrated on areas like sanctification ,and did not seem to have a mind for the systematics as much.This could be a reason. I have not read enough of these men to know or see why they failed to see these things.
    I do know Wesley had some error in the direction of perfectionism which could have obscured His judgement.
    Spurgeon spoke well of Him....
    I have heard others be critical. When i do read someone like Wesley, or J.C. Ryle who struggled with the L..... I attempt to glean the best of their thoughts and not be critical of their defects..unless They are speaking against the truth of God.

    Skan.....no man has all truth.The reformers, puritans, were helpful guides in many ways, but not inspired Apostles. I do not try and pit, one against another. If I read Owen, or Manton, or Calvin, I read critically weeding out what I perceive as error , yet look for truth that is clearly revealed.
    I want to use them to point to Jesus...I do not read them to idolize the man.

    A person who does not receive scriptural correction is a fool. Skan...as a baptist would you be willing to be corrected by a padeo baptist, if he could show that your view of the covenants was not according to scripture?
    When you tell a padeo baptist that his view is error, are you being proud and arrogant? Or are you trying to urge him to re consider his position.

    Awhile ago, I asked sag38 to offer scriptural ideas. There are many here who look to put a person or teaching down, but offer no scripture for their comments. I have requested the same from many who just make little snide remarks against calvinism..quantum, snow,WD,etc.
    The idea of this kind of forum is to put forth ideas ,and allow others to agree or correct scripturally, hopefully to edification.
    Some just attack the person 24 /7 .....that leads me to believe they consider the object of their attack to he heretical.....so they should be able to make a scriptural case. Without it their posts are without any value.
     
    #49 Iconoclast, May 2, 2011
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    What appeal, there is no appeal. What does Total Depravity mean? It means you’re a lousy, stinking, no-good, dirty rotten sinner. It means you will do bad stuff and you like to do bad stuff. Doing bad stuff is one of your best things. You lie, cheat on your taxes, cheat on your wife, get all torqued-off at people, spread bad rumors, get angry at stupid things and take things that are not yours. It means that you are rude, vain, and selfish. It also means that you are capable of doing the worst things you can imagine…committing murder, adultery, and doing violent harm to others. This is all IN YOU and the odds that you will commit these horrible acts are extremely favorable.
     
    #50 Earth Wind and Fire, May 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2011
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Are you sure about that?

    2 Cor. 5:18 "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

    That is actually the doctrine of Original Sin. Total Depravity takes it a step further by adding the unbiblical concept of "total inability" to respond to the appeal of God to be reconciled to Him, the powerful gospel message.
     
    #51 Skandelon, May 2, 2011
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    they know there is a God by nature and conscience, but suppress the true knowledge in unrighteousness... this does not change anything.
     
    #52 Iconoclast, May 2, 2011
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  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Who suppressed the truth? God or them?

    In Calvinism, God suppresses (hides) the truth from the reprobate from birth (see doctrine of Total Depravity). But the scripture teaches they know and understand the truth but reject (or suppress) it thus making them without excuse when the perish.
     
    #53 Skandelon, May 2, 2011
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Skandelon

    The doctrine of total spiritual inability says every unregenerate natural person cannot understand the gospel. This is false doctrine. Jesus taught in Matthew 13 of four types of soil, and the first soil did indeed suffer from total spiritual inability and did not understand the gospel. But the other three soils did understand and respond in various degrees to the gospel. the second soil quickly accepted the gospel, and just as quickly turned away when difficulties arose because of the gospel. They had no "root" in themselves, and therefore traveled the path of least resistance. So the issue is not comprehension, but character.

    1 Corinthians 3:1-3 teaches unregenerate men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, again demonstrating the doctrine of total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

    Some Calvinists assert that spiritually dead people cannot respond, that they first must be "quickened" but they leave that term vague, because nobody is quickened until they are spiritually placed in Christ where they are made alive (quickened) together with Christ. Others assert regeneration before faith, which is demonstrated false by John 1:12-13 which says after a person believes, then they are given the right to be adopted as children of God. Calvinism reverses that sequence.
     
    #54 Van, May 2, 2011
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    this is falsehood ....men surpress the truth not God.men know there is a God. the natural man cannot understand ...you say he can, scripture says he cannot.
    You do not understand 1 cor2
     
    #55 Iconoclast, May 2, 2011
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You say that as if they have some control over it. How does someone who is born without the ability to understand or receive spiritual truth suppress it? How does someone suppress something they don't know or understand?

    Romans 1 CLEARLY teaches they KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the truth but chose to suppress it thus BECOMING calloused and "given over" to their defiled minds. They were born calloused and "given over."

    Its more than that. They know and understand his divine attributes and eternal qualities, which is why their rejection is "without excuse." By suggesting, as Calvinism does, that God has condemned most of mankind from birth without hope of understanding the truth of the gospel give them the perfect excuse.


    He can't understand ON HIS OWN, but God sent Jesus, the scripture, apostles, preachers all of which proclaim the "power of God unto Salvation," the gospel truth. Had he not intervened in this way, then yes, you would be right, we would be without hope, which is what all those verses are talking about. They are talking about how we are natural enemies of God, but they never say that the appeal to be reconciled cannot be received.

    Yes, do you understand the next few verses including 1 Cor 3, where the "brethren" are also referred to as being carnal/natural men who can't receive the same "spiritual things" he is speaking about?
     
    #56 Skandelon, May 3, 2011
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    They supress truth with false religion...a lie.....as it says in romans1
    Do you agree with this? that is why Paul wrote it.

    Yes.....rom10:9-15
    No....you and dhk do not have this passage correct...

    the brethren are not natural men.....they are behaving as natural men
    the brethren are not carnal men.....they are behaving as carnal men

    if a person is described as "cold as ice" does it mean they are ice?
    As unto...........this sets up the whole passage.
    The brethren were acting.......out of character.Instead of behaving as mature spiritual christians,they were behaving [as] babes [as] carnal[as] natural men Until and unless you ,DHK, or anyone else understand this...you will
    miss truth on this whole section.

    He was rebuking them.....not describing them.....
    you are carnal[in this sin of sectarianism] you are walking as ...men[natural,unsaved men]
     
    #57 Iconoclast, May 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2011
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I agree, but to suppress a truth you have to know it first, which as I showed they did as it was "clearly revealed" to them and the "knew and understood the eternal qualities and divine nature of God," which is what made them without excuse for suppressing it. In your view, they don't suppress it, they just never knew it. They were born deaf and blind and defiled. They weren't "given over" they didn't "become defiled" in your view, they were born that way.


    Of course I agree with it. They CHANGED the truth, which they KNEW and UNDERSTOOD, into a lie. But you teach they didn't even know the truth to begin with, which is NOT supported.

    I believe "God gave them up unto vile affections," where as you believe God gave up everyone in Adam and thus all are born given over to the vile affections without hope of ever being reconciled. It doesn't say they were born this way, it says they BECAME like this ONLY after they suppressed what they KNEW and UNDERSTOOD to be the true.

    That's not what the text says, but either way, Paul says they can't "receive" these things either, so clearly its not the revealed gospel appeal to which he is referring otherwise they wouldn't be brethren to begin with.
     
    #58 Skandelon, May 3, 2011
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.
     
    #59 Skandelon, May 9, 2011
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yeah, how does a corpse (as the Calvinists like to describe the natural man) respond well and then get choked out?

    I can't help of the Monty Python movie's quote, "I'm not dead yet!" :laugh:
     
    #60 Skandelon, May 13, 2011
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