You just don't UNDERSTAND!

Humblethinker...

You posted...

Well, dont feel like the Lone Ranger! I misundertood it exactly as you did.

But that still leaves his exceedingly false statement that if anyone does not believe in calvinisms "election" doctrine they are not a child of God.

 

AIC, here is skandelons post on this...

Are you saying it is okay to deny bible teaching AIC?

AIC.....are you one of God's elect?

How do you define election?

Do you believe in election AIC?

Does it bother you when you read the word elect in scripture?

What did Peter mean when he said make your calling and election sure!

 

How can a person make their calling and election sure in Calvinism? If God elects who he wills and passes by the rest, how could you possibly make your election sure? If God did elect you, you will be irresistably saved, you cannot stop it. If you have been passed by you will be damned, you cannot prevent it.

So, how in the world can you make your election sure when you have no control over it in your system?

 

Iconoclast....

You posted...

Of course not. Thats why I am not a calvinist.

Since one wonderfull night about 30 years ago I have been a child of the living God. Prior to that moment I was a lost person. My identity changed in an instant.

I generally dont use the term election.

Not in the false way that calvinists do. A good way to put it might be...

God has elected to save the "whoseover wills". He has elected to NOT save the "whosoever wonts"

 

Winman,

Excellent question. What God does and how he does it[His decree] is His buisness. In other words our buisness is to Obey.
When he says repent and believe, we repent and believe[of course God enables us to do so.]
When God tells us to make our calling and election sure, he tells us how to do this;

Winman....Believers are to obey and behave as if sanctification was by works. Sanctification like salvation is all of grace,,,but we work as God works in us. We work and obey as if we could lose salvation.
Our confidence is not in what we do, our confidence is in the promise and faithfulness of God.

This is true....however the believers assurance fluctuates.Because of indwelling sin your subjective enjoyment of assurance is sometimes strong sometimes weak.

this also is true but remember, the unsaved mostly do not know anything about election, reprobation or any of these concepts,
they are responsible to repent and believe, humanly speaking.
God does not stop them from coming, they love sin.

 

Well for sure the only ones who will believe are the elect,They all will come, not one will be lost.

AIC.... you have some wrong ideas of calvinism for sure.I will help you if you have some questions that you would like to ask:type:

 

I have to admit, I like what you said here.

Now don't let that go to your head, I disagree with most of Calvinism.

But I agree with you here.

 

:applause:Well Winman.... it is ok to be in agreement. this is an important,and often mis-understood area.
Even the apostle Paul put it this way....

The word used for castaway, I believe is the word adikimos...which can be translated as reprobate...also here;

This is a protection against a carnal, proud assurance. Assurance must evidence a working faith, not carnal presumption.

 

Here is some interesting reading for your consideration, Iconoclast. It might help you some...

//http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/danger02.htm

 

Iconoclast...

You posted...

Not quite.

People dont come because they are the "elect" and God chose them previously, so...of course they came because its was planned.

They came to the proverbial "fork in the road".

They made a choice.

This is just one of multititudes upon multitudes of scriptures that make crystal clear that we choose life, or death, good, or evil, blessings or cursings, and eternal life...or hell....

 

Well it was sadly interesting.Why sadly you ask?

I will respond to the heart of the authors wrong view

jay adams is correct...we do not know, so we preach to all

We are commanded to bring the gospel too all men. Everyone believing will be saved! none of us know how many are provided for, that is Gods business.

[QUOTEIf the Reformed preacher were really honest about it, he would need to preach his "gospel" along these lines:

"Perhaps Christ died for you."

Christ died to save sinners covers all men,as all are sinners

"Maybe God so loved you."
the love of God is In Christ, not outside of Him

"Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps."

We do not know if the person is in the eternal covenant, so it would not be truthful to say this

"Salvation has been provided for you, maybe."

This language is not found anywhere in scripture,certainly not in Acts

"Possibly God commendeth His love toward you."

and possibly not, so why take an accomplished work, and reduce it to a potential work?

"Hopefully He’s the propitiation for your sins."

Why would you tell an unrepentant sinner he is not under the wrath of God?

"There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute."

again the same thing as above...potential not actual
"I bring you good news, maybe."
the real gospel is good news to those it saves, it is bad news to those who do not repent
"It’s possible that Christ died for you. If you get saved then we know that He did die for you, but if you continue to reject Him then He did not die for you."
This is true....but this is not how the apostles spoke and commanded all to repent and believe.

][/QUOTE]

 

Iconoclast...

Your answers to the problems I presented to you from the linked material in post #91 were almost completly unsatisfactory, and inadequate, and I am not surprised. You are, after all, a calvinist. You are operating under a very very flawed theological view.

Its late, and I need to get some sleep. but I'll adress your post sometime tommorow.

God bless.

 

And yet, we are the ones seen as arrogant?!? Yea right.....take the plank outa your own eye.

 

Iconoclast

Here are my comments in response to yours...


Statement...The gospel which Paul preached to the unsaved people of Corinth was this: "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3).

Your answer...Paul is speaking to brethren here see vs1...it does not say that Paul told unsaved people that Christ died for them

Me...The scriptures are abunduntly clear that Christ died for the sins of the world. Every...single...person who has ever lived, or ever will live.


Statement....Do we really have a gospel of good news for all men (compare Luke 2:10–11)? In preaching the gospel, what can we say to an unsaved person? Can we say, "My friend, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you. He paid the penalty for your sins. He died as your Substitute"?

Your answer....The apostles never told unsaved people that Christ died for you! They told unsaved people this;..15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners

Me....And since they are sinners, that includes them. That means every single person ever born, or ever will be born, including lost people.

Statement...How can we sincerely offer to men what has not been provided for them

Your answer...We are commanded to bring the gospel too all men. Everyone believing will be saved! none of us know how many are provided for, that is Gods business.

Me...Wrong. We do in fact know preciecly how many are provided for. EVERYONE ever born, or who will be born. That doesnt mean they will accept the offer, but they have opportunity.

If the the Reformed preacher were really honest about it, he would need to preach his "gospel" along these lines:

Statement..."Perhaps Christ died for you."

You...Christ died to save sinners covers all men,as all are sinners

Me...Correct

Statement..."Maybe God so loved you."

You...the love of God is In Christ, not outside of Him

Me...The scriptures are clear that God loves all, for Christ died for the sins of all...not just some.

Statement..."Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps."

You....We do not know if the person is in the eternal covenant, so it would not be truthful to say this

Me....Wrong. Christ died and shed His blood for the sins of all.

Statement...."Salvation has been provided for you, maybe."

You....This language is not found anywhere in scripture,certainly not in Acts.

Me...Then why do you, and Calvinism in general, promote that false idea?

Statement..."Possibly God commendeth His love toward you."

You....and possibly not, so why take an accomplished work, and reduce it to a potential work?

Me....Because the love of God has been placed in us, and we are compelled to love all, and share the gosple with all..since all can be saved...if they embrace Christ.

Statement...."Hopefully He’s the propitiation for your sins."

You.....Why would you tell an unrepentant sinner he is not under the wrath of God?

Me...We dont. We tell them the truth, that God loves them and desires to save them through a relationship with Christ.

Statement...."There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute."

You....again the same thing as above...potential not actual

Me.....No. Christ DID take all the sins of the world on Himself. He paid the "sin debt" for all.

Statement...."I bring you good news, maybe."

You.....the real gospel is good news to those it saves, it is bad news to those who do not repent

Me....But we dont know if they will repent or not. We are to tell them the good news of the gospel, and let the Holy Spirit do its work.

Statement...."It’s possible that Christ died for you.

You....If you get saved then we know that He did die for you, but if you continue to reject Him then He did not die for you."

Me....Ridiculously wrong. Christ died for ALL.







AiC

 

Don't BOTh Cals and Arms affirm that there is indeed "Biblical election?"
Its just that Arms say that God has based the electing out of His people based upon His foreknowledge of them coming to jesus, receiving by faith the Gospel message ?
Cals state that Its based upon God being thedirect cause of their election, that He chose them to come to jesus and be saved?

Don't both say it exists though?

 

There was a book read in past titled "Elect in the Son" by Robert Shank I believe...
is that still a good way to understand the Arminian 'classical" view on Biblical election than?

 

Here is some good information regarding this topic...


Individual Faith is Required for Salvation

The existence of God has been manifested in every person in his unregenerate (unsaved) state by the attributes of God clearly seen in all of His creation, so that no one is without excuse for rejecting the eternal Godhead. This scripture is in complete contradiction to the erroneous theology of Total Depravity in which one is considered to be blind and deaf to the things of God.

In the verses below we see the statement, "even His eternal power and Godhead," which is a direct confirmation of the Christian doctrine of the Triune Godhead; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The Bible affirms man's ability to respond to the Gospel while in a fallen state in which he has been since the fall of Adam. Although the natural man is a sinner, the following verses are in clear contradiction to the erroneous theologies of Total Depravity or Total Inability, which incorrectly teach that the unregenerate man does not have the ability to believe in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ for his salvation. The Bible solidly teaches that every person is given a measure of faith and has been enlightened by Jesus Christ while still in his unsaved, fallen state.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked that [though] you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think [of] [himself] more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Cornelius was a Gentile, not a Jew. He could not be classified as one of the elect, but God accepted him based on his faith, Acts 10:4. He had faith in God even though God didn't ordain any Gentile to receive the gospel at this time. God turned to the Gentiles with salvation later in Acts 11:1. These verses are contradictory to the erroneous theologies of Total Depravity or Total Inability and Unconditional Election.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout [man] and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God."

Acts 11:1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:17 "If therefore God gave them the same gift as [He] [gave] us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

All mankind is commanded in the Scriptures to believe in God and Jesus Christ. These verses overthrow the false theologies of Total Depravity, Total Inability and Unconditional Election. Mark 16:16, John 20:31, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9, 1 John 3:23 and 1 John 5:13 have no meaning without the free will of mankind. God calls upon mankind to believe in Christ because mankind has the free will to believe or reject Christ. God would have no reason to call upon mankind to believe if mankind were in a state of Total Depravity or Total Inability to respond.

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may [continue] [to] believe in the name of the Son of God.

Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I [am] God, and [there] [is] no other."

Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent."

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

John 7:37 On the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

Scripture clearly teaches that "your faith" is required in order for God to administer His blessing upon you. The phrase "your faith" or "their faith" is given thirty-three times in the New Testament New King James Version. Statements such as "God's faith" or "Jesus' faith" do not appear.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well."

Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great [is] your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."

Mark 5:34 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction."

Mark 10:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

Luke 7:50 Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

Luke 8:48 And He said to her, "Daughter, be of good cheer; your faith has made you well. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19 And He said to him, "Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well."

Luke 18:42 Then Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well." 43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him, glorifying God. And all the people, when they saw [it], gave praise to God.

John 6:39b "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

2 Corinthians 1:23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth. 24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand.

http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm#6

 

No your disqualified.....only 25 words or less:smilewinkgrin:

 

AIC,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.You are trying to be helpful ,so Now we will move it up a notch,and we can quickly see where your philosophy has moved you away from scriptural truth.
I only see a few areas where you are in error so I can combine some of your ideas here;

All of your error here.....and make no mistake, it is error..... is a defective view of the cross and what took place there.
You view the cross as a potential work...that in and of itself saves no one!
unless man does something...the cross did not accomplish salvation like the bible declares it did.

In your scheme
God did not save anyone....he has to wait for man to decide if he wants to be saved or not!! God cannot save anyone ....He can only sent His Son to die...but wait for man to do something.
At best...God can only provide a potential salvation, and wish , that some men might even consider it,and if they feel like it, might even believe it so they do not have to go to hell....
Come to think of it AIC......do you also hold the idea that God loves men in hell? He sends them there.....or rather in your idea, they send themselves to hell...and God still loves them??

Your problem when broken down is that you and those who hold your ideas think that if you do not say that God dies for everyone, then He is not being fair, or He owes people something. This comes from a false and emotionally based reading of scripture. God does what is perfect and wise at all times.
What ever man could have done ...died with Adam when he sinned.

you said;