You may know you are saved, because God says so in His Word.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by John3v36, Sep 5, 2002.

  1. John3v36

    John3v36
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    You may know you are saved, because God says so in His Word.

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye
    may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, {Christ} to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    2 Tim 1:12b ...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come
    into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    A Great many people think it is presumption for them to say they know they are saved -- that they can only “hope for the best and will have to wait
    until the judgment before they can know” Paul did not say to the jailer , “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and Perhaps you will be saved , or you will have a good chance of being saved , or you may hope to be saved, or even you may merit to get saved by your good deeds” NO! But “Thou Shalt be Saved” Acts 16:31

    John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    John 3:36a He that believeth on the Son hath {not perhaps will have} everlasting life:

    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life.

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    1 John 5:10-12 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he
    believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [​IMG]

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    [​IMG] Saint John

    [ September 05, 2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: John3v36 ]
     
  2. Carson Weber

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    I agree with you, in part, John.

    We can know that we are saved.

    But, this knowledge is a moral assurance, not an infallible certainty.

    You raised the issue of 1 John 5:13, where John begins the Epilogue to his first epistle. It is often used as a verification that one has absolute certaintly that they will be saved when all is said and done regardless of what occurs from this point in time forward

    1 John 5:13 begins the epilogue to the epistle and the intent of John’s letter was primarily to defend the true Faith against the heresies of the Gnostics who said one needed special knowledge (implying a knowledge the Christians did not have) to have eternal life.

    John is refuting the Gnostics and comforting the Christians that they did have the true knowledge and the true knowledge was the true and only way to eternal life. It was not meant as a proof text between those who hold eternal security and those who deny it.

    It had a higher purpose which had little to do with the question of eternal security or absolute knowledge and confidence of eternal life. This particular verse, as the epilogue, may very well be a summary of the preceding document. The conditional word "if" is used 21 times in the preceding text and could very well be saying, "If you understand and abide by the conditions of this letter, if you love one another, if you avoid sin, if you believe in the Son, etc. etc., you may know that you have eternal life".

    It is meant to be a moral certainty of which the preceding pages gives you a yardstick to measure yourself by. John Stott (of John Stott Ministries For Biblical Preaching and Scholarship) says in his commentary, "The Epistles of John," "They (the recipients of John’s letter) had been unsettled by the false teachers and become unsure of their spiritual state. Throughout the epistle John has been giving them criteria (doctrinal, moral, social) by which to test themselves and others. His purpose was to establish their assurance."

    But at the same time, could they securely rest in their absolute assurance of salvation if their lives were not living up to the criteria John gave them? One should be cautious in reading too much into a text without understanding its context, and the rest of Christian teaching.

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  3. John3v36

    John3v36
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    Nice Guess work! But can not be shown from the word of God.

    And if what you say is true. The Bible still say what it say.

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    I see you did not even try to deal with the other verses.

    ACTS 9:5b...it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    [​IMG] Saint John
     
  4. GH

    GH
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    Dear Carson, you wrote:

    “But at the same time, could they securely rest in their absolute assurance of salvation if their lives were not living up to the criteria John gave them?”

    Yes Carson, they could.

    You seem like a fine young man and a good person, but it isn’t your morality that saves you. Absolute assurance of our salvation comes only in Christ’s finished work on the cross.

    Any goodness we have is a result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for all have gone astray and no one seeks God. But praise Him, He does the seeking!!

    Here are some quotes from: THE PLACE OF THE ECCLESIA IN GOD'S PURPOSE by John H. Essex

    Quote:

    HOLY AND FLAWLESS IN HIS SIGHT

    “Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles sets forth in 1 Corinthians 1, verses 26 to 29:
    "For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble, but the stupidity of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weakness of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong, and the ignoble and the contemptible things of the world God chooses, and that which is not, that He should be discarding that which is, so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight."

    And

    God does not see us as being in the flesh; He is able to "vivify the dead and call what is not as if it were" (Rom.4:17). We are regarded by Him as being righteous now; nothing, consequently is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. God, the justifier, will not indict His chosen ones; He cannot, or His justification would be shown to be an unreality. Christ, Who died, will not condemn. On the contrary, by His being made to be sin for us, He has ensured that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him (2 Cor.5:21). That is to say, that just as He, the One not knowing sin, became a sin offering for our sakes when He hung on the cross, that sin itself might be repudiated, so we, sinners as we were, become God's righteousness in Him. The two states date from the same moment, Christ's death on the cross. We judge this, "that if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died" (2 Cor.5:14). "Our old humanity was crucified together with Him" (Rom.6:6). Why? "That the body of Sin may be nullified." And this is how it appears in God's sight.

    And

    In His sight—these are wonderful words! For there can be no higher estimation—no higher criterion of what is right and what is wrong, what is just and what is unjust. God must be just as well as the justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus (Rom.3:26).

    "If God is for us, who is against us?" (Rom.8:31). God is for us. He declares us to be righteous—this is the meaning behind justification. He accounts us to be holy and flawless. This was a condition established before the disruption, and nothing that has occurred as a result of the disruption can in any way impinge upon, or in the slightest degree affect, the standing of those who were chosen in Christ before that event took place. They are holy and flawless in God's sight, and must ever remain so.” Unquote

    Some of us follow the gospel of repentance preached by Jesus to Israel and also preached to the Jews of the dispersion by Peter, James and John.

    Others follow the gospel of grace preached by Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles. You can read of this in Acts. There’s a different gospel for Gentiles. Peter had this confused and Paul had to set him straight. It’s in Acts – really. You can read it for yourself.

    Quote from James vs. Paul by F. L. Fallis:

    We read in Gal.2:7, of "the gospel of the Circumcision," and "the gospel of the Uncircumcision." Are they the same gospel?" Let the Word answer. Paul says, "I went up [to Jerusalem] by revelation and communicated unto them that gospel which I preached among the gentiles..." (Gal.2:2). If this was the same gospel Peter, James, and John were preaching, what need of explaining it to the elders at Jerusalem? It was not the same. What was it that made it necessary for the Lord to reveal to Paul that he was to go up to Jerusalem? "And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren (Paul's converts), and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question" (Acts 15:1,2).

    Now, what was "this question?" It was the same question as that at the opening of this article. The same one that causes the conflict between Paul and James. Is salvation by faith, or by faith and works combined? This church at Jerusalem knew nothing of a salvation without works. So saturated with the keeping of the law of Moses were they, that twenty years after Pentecost, they said to Paul, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are that believe, and they are all zealous of the law" (Acts 21:20). Now anyone should be able to see that the church at Jerusalem, these elders, Peter, James, and John were fighting bravely for a gospel of law-works and faith combined. Nothing else can explain their position here. ………Now while this was going on, Paul was contending just as manfully for his gospel of faith alone, without works, without any works as an aid to salvation or justification. Unquote

    This is something to seriously consider, imo.

    "Now to Him Who is able to do superexcessively
    above all that we are requesting or apprehending, according to the power that is operating in us, to Him be glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen.!" (Eph.3:20,21).
    This is enough to bring a smile to anybody's face!

    May God bring the light of truth to our hearts concerning the finished work of Christ.

    Peace,
    Diane
     
  5. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Hi Diane,

    You wrote, "You seem like a fine young man and a good person, but it isn’t your morality that saves you."

    I agree wholeheartedly with you.

    I'm saved by faith in he who died for me - not by anything that I've done. I'm not saved because I'm a "moral person". I'm saved because I have faith in the only Son of God.

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  6. GH

    GH
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    Amen and amen, dear Carson.

    So as ye were saved, so walk ye in it. He keeps you too. Therein lies the infallable certainty of your salvation. Remembering that He will cause you to stand by His loving grace. You are not kicked out of the Kingdom because of moral failure.

    Oh what a precious all-sufficient love of Christ that has been poured out upon us!

    God bless you too.

    Diane
     
  7. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Hi Diane,

    You wrote, "Therein lies the infallable certainty of your salvation. Remembering that He will cause you to stand by His loving grace. You are not kicked out of the Kingdom because of moral failure."

    I am in God's grace. He is sustaining me, and I have faith in him. But, I also am mindful that I, through sin, can fall from this grace according to the Scriptures: "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal 5:1-4)

    Saint Paul, wrote at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

    But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified (Gk., dedikaiomai). It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

    Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (Gk. adokimos; Eng. reprobate; rejected; castaway)" (1 Cor. 9:27).

    Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

    God bless,

    Carson

    [ September 06, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  8. John3v36

    John3v36
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    [​IMG] First of all, grace and salvation are not the same thing.
    The word Grace comes from the greek (cariv charis khar’-ece)and means "good will, loving-kindness, favour".

    The word for "Grace" in (Galatians 5:4) is translated "pleasure" in (Acts 24:27)
    See Below.

    Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Acts 24:27 But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix’ room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.

    So to fall from grace does not mean you have lost your salvation.
    Let's look at the next passage.

    (2Tim. 4:7-8) I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Here Paul is talking of rewards not salvation. Look how many times he says "I". He can not mean salvation.

    Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    So let's look at the "crown of righteousness" The greek word "stefanov stephanos stef’-an-os" Lit. means "surrounding" and it was used as the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games. As his life is coming to a close he looks forward to his reward. He had his salvation.

    Let's look at "1 Cor. 4:4" We need a little more context, so lets pull in vs.1-3 also.

    1 Cor. 4:1 ¶ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
    2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
    3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
    4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

    Again here he is not talking about get, keeping or loosing his salvation.. What he is talking about is stewardship. Here in particular "stewards of the mysteries of God."
    The judging here is what others and himself think of the job he is doing. He is saying it does not matter what others think, and it does not matter what he thinks. What matters is what God thinks.

    Now look at 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Again he is not talking about salvation but is using metaphor from the athletic games. A contestant who failed to meat the basic requirements could not run in the games. And as a preacher of the word of God he needed to meet those basic requirements to lead others or he becomes disqualified.
    (See 1 Tim 3:2 & Titus 1:2)

    1 Corinthians 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    So as you see none of the examples you give deal with salvation.

    Now do you think you could go back and deal with ALL the passages that I gave in my first post?

    [​IMG] Saint John
     
  9. GH

    GH
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    Dear Carson, you wrote:

    I am in God's grace. He is sustaining me, and I have faith in him. But, I also am mindful that I, through sin, can fall from this grace according to the Scriptures: "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. ((((((You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal 5:1-4))))))) emphasis mine

    Carson, it is when we go back to the law (what I have to do, not what God has already done) that we fall from grace.

    I'd like to add to John's statement about the meaning of grace (charis) - it can also mean joy or happy. God is happy and joyful to save what has been lost. Thus He glorifies Himself by willingly saving all that has been lost by the sin of Adam and has been redeemed by the work and faith of Jesus Christ on the cross. We steal this glory when we think we can subdue sin - remember no boasting allowed - for we can do nothing without Him.

    Jesus Christ reaches to the realms of death and despair! "The touch of His Hand on mine" is the foundation for the redemption in Christ Jesus. We do not love God, He LOVES us; as that love dominates our inner being, we begin to love Him back. Do you think that there is anything within us that is at the base of His loving embrace and strong grasp? How wonderful that when the way before is dim, and we cannot see through the mist of His wise design, the touch of His Hand on mine carries me along!

    I think Paul spoke figuratively about beating his body into submission - reminding himself that only the loving grace of God could cause him to finish his race well. Oh how the flesh wars with the spirit thinking it can perfect itself with dead works.

    Jesus Christ, touching the domain of death and sin, reaches down to you. With one word "arise!", the predestined Lord of the Universe, in whose hand the gates of death and hell are firmly held, adds another son to His family.

    "Souls are not made sweet by taking ill tempers out, but by putting something in--a great Love, a new Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. Christ, the Spirit of Christ, interpenetrating ours, sweetens, purifies, transforms all. This can only eradicate what is wrong, renovate and regenerate, and rehabilitate the inner man. Will-power does not change men. Time does not change men. Christ does. Therefore Let that mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Henry Drummond

    It isn't about you, Carson - it's about Him. But don't believe me, forget all that's been told you by others and ask Him - for it is His good pleasure to reveal Himself to you as He is.

    Peace, Diane
     
  10. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Hi GH,

    You wrote, "it is when we go back to the law (what I have to do, not what God has already done) that we fall from grace."

    Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, is speaking specifically of ergos nomou, or, works of the law - which are the ceremonial laws of circumcision - in specifically combatting the Judaizers who believed that one must keep the dietary regulations, temple sacrifice, purification rituals, and circumcision in addition to faith in Christ in order to be saved.

    You wrote, "I think Paul spoke figuratively about beating his body into submission"

    Of course Paul is speaking metaphorically. He doesn't actually beat himself up. Paul is speaking of committing acts of mortification that subdue the flesh to the work of the Spirit, so that he does not fall away from the faith due to pride, lust, envy, jealousy, etc.

    Paul presents the possibility that he may still become one of the damned by using the Greek adokimos, which means "reprobate; rejected; castaway".

    This is a fact that is in God's Word, and you need to address it if you believe in the infallible assurance of the eternal security of the believer.

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  11. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Hi John,

    I do not understand why you went into a deep explanation of 2 Tim 4:7-8. The reason I posted the verse was not to show that Paul somehow earned his salvation by works of the law. I posted it to demonstrate that Paul had a better assurance of his salvation near the end of his life than earlier.

    You wrote, "And as a preacher of the word of God he needed to meet those basic requirements to lead others or he becomes disqualified."

    To become disqualified from his ministry?

    The word Paul employs is adokimos, which means "a person foreordained to damnation."

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  12. John3v36

    John3v36
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    I did address it and you did not address my addressing it? Let repost it again.

    Now look at 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Again he is not talking about salvation but is using metaphor from the athletic games. A contestant who failed to meat the basic requirements could not run in the games. And as a preacher of the word of God he needed to meet those basic requirements to lead others or he becomes disqualified.
    (See 1 Tim 3:2 & Titus 1:2)

    1 Corinthians 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    So as you see none of the examples you give deal with salvation.

    [​IMG] Saint John
     
  13. John3v36

    John3v36
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    Yes! From His Ministry.

    No the word means according to "Eston Bible Dictionary"

    Gr. adokimos, #1Co 9:27 one regarded as unworthy (R.V., "rejected"); elsewhere rendered "reprobate" #2Ti 3:8 etc.; "rejected" # Heb 6:8 etc.

    "The Online Bible Greek Lexicon"

    96 adokimov adokimos ad-ok’-ee-mos

    from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1384; TDNT-2:255,181; adj

    AV-reprobate 6, castaway 1, rejected 1; 8

    1) not standing the test, not approved
    1a) properly used of metals and coins
    2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
    2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious

    "Strong's Concorrdance" say:

    adokimov adokimos ad-ok’-ee-mos

    AV-reprobate 6, castaway 1, rejected 1;

    unproved

    ''''''''''''''''''''''''

    So again it contexts that tell us what a word means. This contexts he would become disqualified from his ministry.

    Take the word "Dart" does it mean
    1) a small missile usually with a pointed shaft at one end and feathers at the other

    2)a quick movement &lt;made a dart for the door&gt;

    3)a car as in Dodge dart.

    or

    4) Something you do to a dress.

    It could be all of the above.

    contexts will tell you.

    [​IMG] Saint John
     
  14. John3v36

    John3v36
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    A Great many people think it is presumption for them to say they know they are saved -- that they can only “hope for the best and will have to wait
    until the judgment before they can know” Paul did not say to the jailer , “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and Perhaps you will be saved , or you will have a good chance of being saved , or you may hope to be saved, or even you may merit to get saved by your good deeds” NO! But “Thou Shalt be Saved” Acts 16:31

    [​IMG] Saint John
     
  15. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter
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    Paul also said that he and Timothy had been saved by God, not if they were lucky they would be saved by helping God save them.

    8 Therefore (1) do not be ashamed of the (2) testimony of our Lord or of me (3) His prisoner, but join with me in (4) suffering for the (5) gospel according to the power of God,
    9 who has (6) saved us and (7) called us with a holy (8) calling, (9) not according to our works, but according to His own (10) purpose and grace which was granted us in (11) Christ Jesus from (12) all eternity, - 2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB

    [ September 07, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Dualhunter ]
     
  16. GH

    GH
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    Dear Carson,

    you wrote:

    Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, is speaking specifically of ergos nomou, or, works of the law - which are the ceremonial laws of circumcision - in specifically combatting the Judaizers who believed that one must keep the dietary regulations, temple sacrifice, purification rituals, and circumcision in ((((((addition to faith in Christ in order to be saved.)))))) emphasis mine

    I write:

    Yes this is true - then why do you resist accepting faith in Jesus only to be saved? Has not the church (all of them in my opinion) added their own Christian laws to the finished work of Jesus Christ?

    You wrote:

    Of course Paul is speaking metaphorically. He doesn't actually beat himself up. Paul is speaking of committing acts of mortification that subdue the flesh to the work of the Spirit, so that he does not fall away from the faith due to pride, lust, envy, jealousy, etc.

    Paul presents the possibility that he may still become one of the damned by using the Greek adokimos, which means "reprobate; rejected; castaway".

    I write:

    Paul is talking about service to others and winning people to Christ - not losing his salvation. He wanted to be faithful to his calling - and don't we all want to be faithful as well - we who know His love?

    You wrote:

    This is a fact that is in God's Word, and you need to address it if you believe in the infallible assurance of the eternal security of the believer

    I write:

    God's loving grace and mercy has already addressed it for me.

    "For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity, 12 training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon, 13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
    14 Who gives Himself for us, that He should be redeeming us from all lawlessness and be cleansing for Himself a people to be about Him, zealous for ideal acts. Titus 2:11-14"

    Carson, we, His Body are a work in progress. And He is faithful - He will complete the work He has begun in us.

    Peace, Diane
     
  17. GH

    GH
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    Or how about these, Dualhunter:

    "I can do some things through Christ who strengthens me..."

    "The love of money is the root of some evil...."

    "For God hath shut up some men unto disobedience, that He might have mercy upon some." Rom. 11:32

    "For some shall know Me from the least to the greatest..." Heb. 8:11

    "Christ...He is the Lord of some...." Acts 10:36

    "God, who is the Father of some...." Eph. 4:6

    "That in the Name of Jesus some knees shall bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that some tongues should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil. 2:10,11

    All or some? I say all. Blessed be God forever.

    [ September 07, 2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: GH ]
     
  18. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Hi GH,

    You wrote, "why do you resist accepting faith in Jesus only to be saved?"

    It depends on how you define your terms. I believe, as I read St. Paul clearly to teach in his Epistles and Jesus in the Gospels, that we cannot be saved without the supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love infused into our souls by the power of the Holy Spirit, who is received initially in Trinitarian baptism. Once we have been graced with faith, hope, and love (often spoken of as "Faith" in Paul's Epistles), then we are in a state of grace - and we, by cooperating with this power that is not our own, grow in holiness, whereby we are clothed entirely with the only Son of God - this is a process of receiving God's righteousness - until we are without blemish before the sight of Almighty God in heaven.

    You wrote, "Paul is talking about service to others and winning people to Christ - not losing his salvation. He wanted to be faithful to his calling - and don't we all want to be faithful as well - we who know His love?"

    My central point that is being missed entails that the Greek word Paul employs is adokimos, which essentially means "one predestined to eternal damnation".

    God bless you on this LORD's Day,

    Carson Weber
     
  19. GH

    GH
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    Salvation by Christ is NOT from endless punishment. The doctrines of hell and eternal damnation are of pagan origin. And men who wanted to control the masses have mistranslated the Holy Scriptures to fit these evil doctrines.

    If endless punishment really is the penalty of God under the Gospel and Christ came to save us from this, couldn’t we expect to have this fact announced from the beginning? Wouldn’t God be clear on this punishment of eternal damnation?
    Luke 4:16-22. Christ Himself says at the opening of His ministry, of what He was sent into the world for, and if the great purpose of His coming were to save men from endless misery, wouldn’t He say so.

    "The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the Gospel (good tidings) to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, and to set at liberty them that are bruised, and to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister (of the synagogue), and sat down."

    No mention of His being sent to save from a future endless damnation in hell; If the doctrine of eternal damnation is true, Jesus is pretty silent about it - just when He should have clearly declared it.

    And isn’t it interesting that Jesus leaves out a most important expression: "the day of vengeance of our God." He reads down to these words, and then stops short in the middle of the sentence, closes the book, and sits down. Isn’t it significant that He should leave this portion out of His declaration of His mission?

    "God, having raised up his son Jesus, sent him to bless you," - Peter tells the murderers of Jesus (and if the purpose for which God raised up Jesus and sent Him into the world is to save us from endless punishment maybe now we would hear it). No Peter says "He sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Wouldn’t this be a great time for revealing the doctrine of endless torment? "He gave himself for us, that he might redeem us" - from all iniquity." Titus 2:11-14. "Our Lord Jesus who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from" - a future evil world? No He delivers us "FROM THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD!" Gal. I 4.

    "Thou shall call his name JESUS, for he shall save his people from their sins." Matt. 1. 21 He shall save them from sin, not from the vengeance of God, or the penalty of the divine law, or the horrors of endless punishment.

    Now for a very interesting word study.

    As you look into the word "wrath", especially when Jesus used the word, do a search (yes, even in a Strong's Concordance) and find Strong's # 3709.

    3709 orge or-gay' from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath. see GREEK for 3713

    What I find so very interesting is that "properly" this word means, "desire" (and perhaps a very strong desire).

    Now look to its root word:

    3713 oregomai or-eg'-om-ahee middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary (compare 3735); to stretch oneself, i.e. reach out after (long for):--covet after, desire. see GREEK for 3735

    The root word means to "reach out after" or to "long for".

    What we have here is something that really has nothing to do with anger and retribution, much less any eternal punishment.

    This "wrath" is an immensely strong desire or "strongly longing for". I wonder what God really, strongly desires or "longs for"?

    He who has faith in the Son has eternal life; but he who has not faith in the Son will not see life; God's wrath is resting on him. (John 3:36)
    Those that have faith in Him will "know the Father and the Son, whom the Father sent", but those that don't will not know them and God's very strong desire is upon them.

    Is it not strange to you that a word description contains things like "properly (means) thus and so", but then tries to tell us what is "implied". Well, whose implication is it, God's or the translator's?

    Yes, I see God's "wrath" in Scripture, but is it forever and ever; or is it even the "anger" that preachers want to control the masses with?

    God isn’t angry, Carson. He is standing over you with JOY. His love covers a multitude of sins. His mercy triumphs over judgment. He is compassionate, slow to anger and loves with an enduring love. This is the Good News: God is reconciling the world to Himself through Jesus Christ His Son.

    It is wonderful!

    God has blessed you,Carson, on this beautiful LORD’S day.

    Diane
     
  20. John3v36

    John3v36
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    Wow! Thats a mouthful. And I see not one(1) Bible passage to back him up.

    [​IMG] Saint John
     

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