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Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Jun 4, 2006.
"Cut and run like cowards"? Do you think there will never be any possible way for a retreat to be practical and in our best interests?
Absolutely. When the job is done and Iraq is stable. When we complete the job.
That wouldn't be a reatreat, would it?
I wouldn't support a pullout from Iraq at this time; I agree that it would cost too many lives. But for you to claim that any thought of retreat is cowardly shows that you are more intent on being able to claim victory than on any useful concerns.
How could it even be cowardly for someone who's not in Iraq at the moment to support pulling other people out of there? (And do you think that supporting the war from home makes you courageous?)
It'll never happen. (Look Joseph, another contraction!)
I don't know - it might happen. If we can provide civil order and restore basic services, let the people live "normal" lives, then this sort of action will turn the people against the insurrectionists.
It could happen, but I don't have high hopes with Rumsfeld, Cheney & Bush in charge....but we have to try for it.
We needn't have seen it at all but for the actions of a few well connected men in government and media that dreamed of one day coming to power and using the USA's military strength to crush all opposition to the UN's global governance and make the whole world a corporate run transnational garden of eden with all things regulated tagged tracked traced privatized and sustainable. And makes lots and lots of money from it in the meantime.
Joseph, it's happening more right now. What you're describing are the consequences of taking down the old regime and making Iraq safe for terrorists.
I agree that we can't just leave and let anarchy prevail. It's one of those things that are easier to get into than out of. Iraq's become a bleeding sore costing us billions of dollars, thousands of lives, for nothing.
So, it's better for the government of Iraq to openly torture and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people than for a handful of terrorists to do it?
For nothing? The freedom of millions of people who no longer live under a Hilteresque regime is nothing? The establishment of democracy in the middle east is nothing? The bringing to justice of a man guilty of thousands upon thousands of brutal murders is nothing? That's a strange definition of nothing. I sure hope nothing continues to happen around this word.
I would think, since they are tying down a huge number of American soldiers, that there are more than a "handful" now. And I doubt of the people being tortured and killed see much of a difference.
The primary difference is this time, we caused it to happen. In some cases, we were the ones who did it. Does that matter to you?
It appears that Islamic law is going to remove the equal rights of women in Iraq. That isn't my definition of democracy. Meantime, large areas of Iraq are no-mans-land where being a shiite or a sunni means you are open to murder, torture and rape. People just disappear. Or a bus is stopped, selected people are removed and murdered. How is this a good thing?
So far, you could say that only of Israel. Iraq remains under US authority. And people are being murdered, tortured, and raped as they were before we invaded.
Only this time, we caused it to happen.
Nothing preventing anyone from going to Iraq and volunteering to help the govt there. Left wing wants to steal my money but right wing wants to steal my children's lives.
Sad to say that we will see more of this scene whether we stay, or cut and run. People what we are seeing here whether we truly want to believe it or not, has nothing to do with American "Imperialism" it has nothing to do with "W's" oil cronies trying to make a buck. Whether he realized it or not, the president hit the nail on the head some time back when he said this was a fight between good and evil. Islam vs. Christianity. To be blunt Satan vs. God. I'm the most optimistic person in the world, but as we've probably heard many times over, all we have to do is hold the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other and we can see time is short. Is this the beginning of the End? I don't know, but more than likely it is. I believe instead of us Christians throwing out blame as to whose fault it is and what the govt. should or should not be doing, we either need to be on here discussing how to win people to Christ, or better yet either be out their doing it, or on our knees praying for one more Great Awakening before He returns!!!raise:
The primary difference is this time, we caused it to happen.
Saying we caused this to happen is like one of my children telling me that the other one, "made me hit him." We didn't force the "terrorists" to do anything that they have done. They made a choice. I served in the Navy for 10 years, and now have many active duty(young and old) as well as retired military people in my church-- a couple of them now are in Iraq and Afghanistan. Another is in NC awaiting orders to go. To a person, they will tell you that they knew what the possibilities were when they signed on the dotted line. They believed and still believe they are making a difference. So do I.:applause:
In the LA riots, who caused the riots?
The trial verdict or the rioters?
No, we didn't. We just made Iraq safe for them. Before, they couldn't operate there, because the Baathist dictatorship would not permit it. Violence between Sunnis and Shiites was forbidden. If we had more capable leaders, we could still have removed Saddam, but left the country with a means to defend themselves. A quick defeat of Saddam followed by a warning to the Baathists that so long as they behaved themselves there wouild be no repercussions would have been effective. But instead the fools set up a perfect base for terrorists, and a quagmire for American soldiers. Now, we see that some of them, in impossible situations, have tortured and killed Iraqi civilians.
Like Vietnam, such atrocities are the work of a minority. And the vast majority of troops fight (and sometimes die) doing their duty honorably. The shame is on the people who inflicted all this evil on Iraq and America, not the men and women who serve.
Both. The acquittal of the criminals was a travesty, which some people used as an excuse to riot. None of it was justified.
We just had a murderer acquitted here in my little town. He and his wife got married to commit insurance fraud, and he pushed her off a cliff to keep the money for himself.
Should we riot over that? Would that be a just cause?
You are aware that the Baathist party has its roots in WW2 era fascism, right? So what you would have supported post-WW2 is to knock off Hitler but leave the Nazis in charge?
This is a pretty funny criticism from the left. OTOH, we aren't being aggressive enough and on the other there is absolutely zero tolerance for collateral damage.
The reason Saddam was able to suppress this stuff as you noted earlier is that he was willing to kill whole villages in order to get one trouble maker. He was willing to torture, rape, and kill whole families to send a message to those who would oppose him.
Obviously some don't really think Saddam was a bad guy and deserved to be left alone. But it is fairly hypocritical to condemn the mistakes and misjudgments of our people then out of the other side of your mouth condemn the fact that Iraq is now "safe for terrorists" (which btw isn't actually true).
It isn't necessarily an impossible situation... but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Our people are doing what they can within the limitations of avoiding things like this. Nonetheless, our soldiers know the laws of combat. They know you don't attack unarmed civilians. They know you don't kill for revenge.
No. The shame is on the soldiers and especially the officers who lost control of the situation and broke the law.
"The people who inflicted all this evil" didn't put them in any more of an untenable situation than FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK, LBJ, or Nixon did the soldiers under their authority- In fact, much less so. Without much doubt at all, similar situations or much worse occurred under each of these men that will never be known. My Lai is probably the tip of the ice berg for all of those conflicts.