Zechariah 13:6

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Eliyahu, Aug 13, 2006.

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  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    Zechariah 13:1-5 tells about the false prohets, then from v 7 it turns to the Shepherd as quoted in the Gospel which means Jesus Christ.
    Now the question is verse 6 because it can belong either to the false prophet or to Messiah.

    KJV is rather neutral and can be interpretted as meaning Jesus, but I notice NIV is inclined to the false prophet meaning the verse is connected to the previous false prophets.

    Returning to the Hebrew Masoretic Text, I notice the followings:

    1) Nacah used in v 7 " smite my Shepherd (to dead: complete Jewish Bible)" was used in v 6 " those with which I was wounded ( smitten to dead) at my beloved friends' house" Nacah means strike. smite, and verse 6 uses its Hophal form ( passive)

    2) I am not sure the space between 6 and 7 existed from the original, but if so, it could have been there because there is a big gap of time for thousand years between 2 verses, not because v 6 belongs to false prophet and v 7 belongs to Jesus.

    Another thought was about the false prophet. Are they wounded for their friends ? From my understanding and experience non of the false prophets are wounded (struck to death) for their friends, neither Buddah ( died of disease) nor Mohammed ( just enjoyed more than 30 wives, raping and killing), nor Moonie or any other false prophets sacrificed themselves for other people.

    My discernment is that v 6 belongs to the Shepherd and indicates Jesus.

    Jesus was wounded on his hands.

    NIV interpreted the Hand into Body, which is wrong.

    Jesus had his hands wounded at the House of His beloved friends, Israel.

    Your comments will be welcome.
     
    #1 Eliyahu, Aug 13, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2006
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Zechariah 13:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And one shal say vnto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?
    Then hee shall answere: Those with which I was wounded
    in the house of my friends.


    Zechariah 13:6 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible):
    If someone asks him: What are these wounds on your chest?
    -then he will answer: The wounds I received
    in the house of my friends.

    From Strongs, the Hebrew term translated 'hands'
    or 'chest', etc.:

    H3027
    יד
    yâd
    yawd
    A primitive word; a hand (the open one (indicating power, means, direction, etc.), in distinction from H3709, the closed one); used (as noun, adverb, etc.) in a great variety of applications, both literally and figuratively, both proximate and remote: - (+ be) able, X about, + armholes, at, axletree, because of, beside, border, X bounty, + broad, [broken-] handed, X by, charge, coast, + consecrate, + creditor, custody, debt, dominion, X enough, + fellowship, force, X from, hand [-staves, -y work], X he, himself, X in, labour, + large, ledge, [left-] handed, means, X mine, ministry, near, X of, X order, ordinance, X our, parts, pain, power, X presumptuously, service, side, sore, state, stay, draw with strength, stroke, + swear, terror, X thee, X by them, X them-selves, X thine own, X thou, through, X throwing, + thumb, times, X to, X under, X us, X wait on, [way-] side, where, + wide, X with (him, me, you), work, + yield, X your-selves.


    'what are these wounds on your ministry?'
     
  3. Deacon

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    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
    KJV

    And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
    NKJV

    “And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
    NAS

    If someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ he will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.
    NIV

    And if one asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your back?’ he will say, ‘The wounds I received in the house of my friends.
    ESV

    Then someone will ask him, ‘What are these wounds on your chest?’9 and he will answer, ‘Some that I received in the house of my friends.
    NET

    The phrase bolded is an idiomatic expression with an imprecise or questionable meaning in the original Hebrew.


    From Dr. Constable's Bible Study Notes

    Re:Zech 13:6


    “Though some expositors believed this verse describes Messiah and His wounds, the preceding context and lack of any New Testament citation of the verse in relation to Messiah argue against this view. 293

    "This verse is best understood as an evasive reply of a false prophet in the last days. It carries on and concludes the subject begun in v. 2. By no valid interpretation may it be referred to the Lord Jesus Christ.
    There is no clear change of subject between vv. 5 and 6 such as exists between vv. 6 and 7.
    Christ would not claim that He was not a prophet (cf. Dt. 18:15-18);
    He was not a farmer; He was not bought or sold from His youth.
    Verse 7 does speak of Christ, as Mt.
    26:31 and Mk. 14:27 attest." 294 “


    291 Unger, p. 225.

    292 The modern practice of claiming, "I walked into a door," to avoid telling the real reason for an injury is similar.

    293 Unger, pp. 228-30; and R. Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and D. Brown, Commentary Practical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, p. 865; were proponents of the messianic interpretation.

    294 The New Scofield . . ., p. 975.

    2006 Edition Dr. Constable's Notes on Zechariah

    Rob
     
    #3 Deacon, Aug 14, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2006
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    Yad appears 1615 times in OT,and KJV translated it as follows:

    AV - hand 1359, by 44, consecrate + 04390 14, him 14, power 12, them 11,
    places 8, tenons 6, thee 6, coast 6, side 5, misc 130; 1615


    quoted from Blue Letter Bible
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1155642880-1644.html

    The fact that NT didn't quote it as meaning Messiah doesn't mean that it doesn't indicate Him.

    Let's see Ex 23:20-21. It apparently indicates Messiah, but these verses were not quoted in NT as meaning Messiah.

    Zech 14:4 apparently describe the second coming of Messiah, but was it quoted ever in NT ?

    Zech 12:10 is so famous for Messiah, but was it quoted in NT ever ?
    It just coincides with Jn 19:34, Rev 1:7.

    If the coincidence is the requirement, I can show you such coincidence for Zc 13:6 as well.
    Ps 22:16, Jn 20:25-27, Jn 19:18, and so on.
    Maybe it was not quoted because it coincides too many times and there is no need to mention it.

    Other translations embraced the personal understandings of the translators, while KJV translated Word-to-Word, resulting in the neutral translation.

    Verse 6 is in the middle of the 2 characters, one for false prophets ( verse 1-5) and the Messiah (v 7).

    Whereto it belongs is the question to be discerned by the readers and commentators.

    Can we imagine any false prophet who die for his beloved friends?

    Has anyone commented on my linkage between v6 and v7 by the word : Nacah( smite, smite anyone to death) ?
    The word was often used for "smitten by God".
     
    #4 Eliyahu, Aug 15, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2006
  5. Deacon

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    Sure, yād (יָד) means hand but you’ve got to read the whole verse.
    First, “yad” is plural (hands) and ba-yin (בַּיִן) means between: so the whole phrase is “between his hands”.

    2 Kings 9:24 provides a similarly constructed phrase but uses the word ze-roah (זְרֹועַ) meaning arm or shoulder instead of “hand”.

    It doesn’t mean in the middle of the shoulder, it means between the shoulders, which is obvious because the heart was struck.
    IMO, the phrase in Zechariah 13:6 can best be translated as "between his hands" but can mean “on the chest or the back” (ESV)
    OR EVEN BETTER, “body” which is about as unspecific as the original expression, “between the hands” (NIV).

    Now concerning your point #1, the use of words using a similar root word (NKH), it might be interesting if you could show some chiastic structure in the passage.
    If there is you might have something worthy of interest.
    I don’t have the time or interest to search for it myself.

    Point #2 regards a space between verses 6 and 7;
    Really there is no space; there is a distinct ending of verse 6, (the last word in the verse is the only word on the line).
    This then is followed by verse 7 on the next line (like a new paragraph).

    Lastly you mention:
    I’d be interested to see some scriptural support for Israel described as a friend of the Messiah.

    Rob
     
  6. Eliyahu

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    Rob,
    Thanks for your comments.

    1. But as I indicated, about 82% of 1615 usages translate Yad as hand, and I don't find any reason to disprove KJV's translation as hands.
    The primary meaning of Yad is hand and therefore it is reasonable to interpret it as hands. At least it could be the starting point of the interpretation.

    2. Beyin is used as between mostly, but it is sometimes translated as among or from among as well. It is translated as among with another preposition Be sometimes.

    Now let's see some cases:

    Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in 0996 the evening

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/9/1155696825-5699.html

    Here you see Beyin is used as IN
    This may be explained as between 2 evenings, one evening of 14th day and the forthcoming evening of 15th day. But the result was that it meant IN.

    Ex 16:12 as well.

    Numbers 16:37 - out of burning, with mi

    Job 24:11 - within (their walls)

    Isaiah 44:4, Ezekiel 37:21, 47:18 are the cases where Beyin was not used for between, but as among.

    I think KJV chose the right word for Beyin in Zc 13:6, as in.

    The usage of Beyin is not limited to "between"

    3. As for the gap between v 6 and v7 is quite coinciding with my points because there is a big gap between 2 verses in timing.

    v 6 happened at the second coming of Masiach ( messiah).
    v 7 happened at the first coming of Messiah.

    In order for v 6 to happen, the sword must arise, and therefore v 7 is there.


    4. As for claiming that He was a Prophet, yes of course Jesus would claim that He was the true Prophet.
    I never denied the verses 1-5 means the false prophet. v 6 is separated from the previous verses and related to v 7.
     
    #6 Eliyahu, Aug 15, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2006
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