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The twelfth Apostle - Paul or Matthias?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Olivencia, Apr 29, 2009.

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  1. Olivencia

    Olivencia New Member

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    The twelve apostles of the Lamb (Revelation 21:14).

    Is Paul or Matthias this twelfth Apostle? Paul is no doubt an Apostle. I believe that Matthias was also an Apostle for:
    1. God never condemned his apostleship.
    2. He was addressed by the Jews after Peter's proclamation of the gospel (Acts 2:37).
    3. The Jews who got saved were "continually devoting themselves" to his teaching and fellowship (Acts 2:42).
    4. He was able to perform signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).
    5. He was put in jail by the High Priest and Sadducees (Acts 5:18).
    6. He was flogged for his faith by these officials (Acts 5:40).
    7. He summoned the disciples to resolve the complaint by the Hellenistic Jews (Acts 6:2).
    8. He laid hands on the men that were put in charge of this task (Acts 6:6).
    9. He sent Peter and John to Samaria (Acts 8:14).
    10. He was there when Barnabas introduced Paul (Acts 9:27).
    11. His decision was authoritative at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:6, 22, 23).
    12. The account of the election of Matthias to the inner circle of the twelve in the place of Judas shows us that together with the direction and will of the Spirit, who represented Jesus, another element played a decisive part, namely, the qualification of the one elected as an eyewitness (TDNT 1:436, apostolos).

    Those that claim Matthias was not a legitimate Apostle point to the fact that he was chosen by lots (Acts 1:26) which somehow diminsishes him being a twelfth Apostle. But at this time lots were used because the Holy Spirit had not yet come until Acts 2:4. So I believe it in no way negates his true standing as a twelfth Apostle.
    ----------
    So I am not sure who the twelfth Apostle is that Revelation 21:14 speaks of.

    Any thoughts?
     
    #1 Olivencia, Apr 29, 2009
  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    We had this discussion recently and I thought that Paul was really the 12th, but I changed my mind because it was pointed out that one of the requirements was that an apostle was to have been a witness to the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord. I can't remember the scripture off the top of my head, but Paul did not meet those requirements, even though he was an apostle.
     
    #2 Amy.G, Apr 29, 2009
  3. Olivencia

    Olivencia New Member

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    Hello Amy,

    I believe it is 1 Corinthians 9:1 but Paul claims here as well that he did in fact see the Lord Jesus - thus affirming His resurrection.
     
    #3 Olivencia, Apr 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2009
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Here it is:

    Acts 1:20-22 (King James Version)

    20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

    21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

    22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
     
    #4 Amy.G, Apr 29, 2009
  5. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    My vote is Judas. He was named an apostle by Christ. Mathias was chosen by lots, and Paul says he is the least. Judas did work miracles with the other 11.
     
    #5 thegospelgeek, Apr 29, 2009
  6. Olivencia

    Olivencia New Member

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    The name of the son of perdition in heaven?

    ...Judas was not an eyewitness of the resurrection. He died earlier.
     
    #6 Olivencia, Apr 29, 2009
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Are you serious? Judas is ruling an reigning with Christ? His name is written in the foundation of New Jerusalem?

    Judas went to his place and it wasn't heaven.
     
    #7 Amy.G, Apr 29, 2009
  8. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    Was he named an Apostle by Jesus himself?
     
    #8 thegospelgeek, Apr 29, 2009
  9. Olivencia

    Olivencia New Member

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    Was he an eyewitness to the resurrection of Christ?

    No
     
    #9 Olivencia, Apr 29, 2009
  10. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    So Christ didn't no what the requirements were? or did he chose to disregard them?
     
    #10 thegospelgeek, Apr 29, 2009
  11. Olivencia

    Olivencia New Member

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    Christ knew what they were for a requirement is to witness the resurrection (1 Corinthians 9:1). This passage was penned after the fact but in no way does it nullify the requirement that it speaks of.
     
    #11 Olivencia, Apr 29, 2009
  12. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    I don't want to speak for you but it sounds like you are saying;

    Jesus knew the requirement, Judas never met it, but Jesus named him an apostle anyway?
     
    #12 thegospelgeek, Apr 29, 2009
  13. Olivencia

    Olivencia New Member

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    It was "to be" a requirement for an Apostle.

    One question:
    1. Does an Apostle need to have witnessed the resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:1)?
     
    #13 Olivencia, Apr 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2009
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    My bad. Edited because I was wrong.:laugh:
     
    #14 Amy.G, Apr 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2009
  15. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    1 Cor 9:1 states no such thing. Paul ask if he is an Apostle. Paul ask if he is free. Paul ask if he has seen the Lord. Paul ask if the Corinthinian Church is a product of his work in the Lord. Is says nothing about requirements for apostleship.
     
    #15 thegospelgeek, Apr 29, 2009
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

    The replacement for Judas had to have been a witness to the resurrection. Judas did not witness it. He was dead.
     
    #16 Amy.G, Apr 29, 2009
  17. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    Agree,

    So why did Jesus name Judas an Apostle?
     
    #17 thegospelgeek, Apr 29, 2009
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    To fulfill prophecy.

    Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.
     
    #18 Amy.G, Apr 29, 2009
  19. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    Did the prophecy require he be an apostle?

    Is he an apostle?

    If not is Luke 6:13 incorrect?
     
    #19 thegospelgeek, Apr 29, 2009
  20. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Yes, he was chosen as an apostle. Luke 6:13 is correct.

    Here is another prophecy:

    Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; [and] let another take his office.


    God chose to do it this way, so in that respect, yes it was a requirement.
     
    #20 Amy.G, Apr 29, 2009
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