An important Doctrine being overlooked

The Doctrine in question is, “Conditional Discipleship”.

Recently I was preparing a message out of Luke, about “the blessings of discipleship”;
And realized that most people have missed the point.

Most people consider every believer, a disciple; But Scripture makes it clear, that disciples, are the “remnant” of the Church.
(The 10% or so, that actually get things done.)
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One of the reasons, the understanding of this Doctrine has been clouded, is how the MV’s have changed Matthew 28:19.

None of us can “make” a disciple; This is a decision that every Christian must make for themselves.

 

Hello Tom

You said........

This is an interesting question:

A good example of a remnant was Gideon.....
Judges 6:13
“And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where [be] all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.”

A man of faith, that simply believed God’s Word, but was courageous enough to ask questions, and didn’t care what anybody thought about him.
And then broke down his father’s altar of Baal, and built an alter to the LORD.

And his father, was a believer, that wasn’t a part of the remnant, because he had put that alter up, just to get along.
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You also said........

I am not really sure, where you are going here.
But the fact is, you can be a believer, and have a problem with a lack of commitment.
And most of the Bible is talking to believers, encouraging them to totally commit there lives to Christ, thus becoming a disciple and part of the remnant.

 

Hello Larry

You asked........

Yes I can.......
Luke 14:26-27
V.26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
V.27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

This is a good example of this doctrine;
Here the Lord infers, that if you put anyone or anything else before Him, you can not be His disciple.

We both know plenty of professing believers, who are putting other things before the Lord.
(This is why they are at the lake, instead of in Church on Sunday morning.)

This reminds me of a conversation that I had with one of the ladies in my Church years ago;
She was upset, because I regularly say, “you should be in Church every time the doors are open”(Sunday am & pm and Wednesday).
And she challenged me, “Where in the Bible does it say I have to be in Church for every service” and I showed her Heb.10:25.

She insisted that she could be a “good Christian”, and be casual about her Church attendance. (By the way, she has fallen out now, and never comes to Church.)
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Next you responded to my statement........

And you said........

Well you are a case in point.

Let me ask you something;
Being aware of the qualifications of discipleship; Are you saying that every professing believer you know, fulfills these qualifications?
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Next, I said........

And you asked........

I gave one of the Scriptures to Tom, in my previous response;
But the percentage isn’t always the same.

In some Churches and at some times, only about 10% of it’s members tithe and faithfully support the Church;
While the rest of it’s “members”, are just going through the motions.
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Finally you said.........

A disciple is a student, that sits at Jesus’ feet.
And you can’t force people to be a student(believe me I have tried).

Luke 10:40-42
V.40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
V.41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
V.42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Mary was a disciple, but Martha had not yet learned to be.

 

Hello again Larry

You said..........
“Yes, and he says if you don’t, you lose your soul. That shows this is a matter of belief/unbelief, not a matter of an extra commitment of believers.”



Please show me where in this passage, that the Lord says, “you lose your soul”, if you don’t qualify as a disciple?
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Next you said........
“That’s also why they are professing believers, not true believers.”



I personally reject the doctrine of Lordship salvation;
I am sorry to see that you don’t.
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Then you said........
“I missed the “every service” part of Heb 10:25. Which translation are you using?
Now, there is probably no one here with a stronger view of the local church than me. I think you should be there all the time. But Heb 10:25 doesn’t say “every service.”




Well you know Larry, that is exactly what she said.
And I responded to her by saying, “that if you voluntarily miss any service, than you are forsaking the assembly of the saints”.

If you know of a more pointed passage, concerning Church attendance, please let me know.
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Next you said........
“Gideon was not a man of great faith and leadership. In many ways, he was a failure. He also wasn’t a believer in Christ, and not a member of the Church.”





Well I agree; Although some here say, that the Church started back with Adam and Eve, I am glad that you and I are on the same page here.

Gideon, was an example of the remnant!
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Next you said.......
“Of course you can’t force people to be a student. Matt 28:19 teaches no such things.”




Again, I completely agree with you.
But boy it’s a shame, that the MV’s changed it, in an attempted to fool people.
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I am glad that we had this talk.

Sorry for no quote/boxes, but the editor was messing up.

 

Hello Larry

First let me apologize for the sarcastic tone of my last response to you.

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As for Lordship salvation, you said.......

Well you said(in light of Luke 14:26-27), that if someone didn’t put the Lord before his father and mother etc, than he was unsaved.

This in itself, sounds like “Lordship salvation”:
(That if at any moment of your life, Jesus isn’t the Lord of your life, than you are not saved.)

If this isn’t Lordship, please let me know.
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Then when I said that I was sorry, that you might have fallen into this false doctrine, you said........

The Bible indeed says, that we are saved & kept by grace, not be good works.
(The way I understand Lordship salvation, is it slides over grace, into works.)

Now works are important, but not to keep us saved.
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Finally lets look at your interpretation of Matthew 16:24-26

You said........

Indeed this is also talking about the qualifications of discipleship.
But, when you see this passage in context with the verses around it, you clearly see that it is talking about chastening and loss of reward, and not being lost and going to hell.

Take a look at the two verses, just before this passage.......
Matthew 16:22-23
V.22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying,
Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
V.23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan:
thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter had gotten his eyes off of eternity, and on to earthly things.
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As for Verse 25.......
V.25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Any Christian, that takes control of his own life, will lose it.
But when he turns his life over to the Lord’s control he will find it.)

The New Testament is full of examples of believers, losing there lives, as a result of God’s chastening hand.
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And verse 26.......
V.26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world,
and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(Again the Lord is talking about, a Christian losing their life, as a result of sinful or lustful activity, and losing his heavenly reward.)

-And take a look at the next verse.-
Matthew 16:22-27
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels;
and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

Remember, salvation is not a reward, but a free gift.

This entire passage is talking to and about beleivers, and how they might receive rewards in Glory, and avoid chastening here on earth.

 

Hello canadyjd

I am sorry, for not making myself more clear.
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You said........

It is true, that you are either a believer, or an unbeliever;
But the word “disciple”, is not the same as “a believer”.

The word “disciple” means student.
And unfortunately, you can be a believer, and not be sitting at Jesus’ feet.

It would be nice, if every believer studied his Bible every day, and was a faithful follower of Jesus Christ, but they aren’t.
If you want to write off every professing Christian, that has periods of unfaithfulness in there life, as being lost, you can;
But the Bible does not support such a stand.

Remember what Jesus repeatedly said........
Matthew 9:13
“But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

These sinners, were Jews, that had gotten away from the LORD, who Jesus had come to bring back into fellowship with God.

Our God is merciful, and when we make mistakes and fall into sin, He is not standing over us, ready to toss us into hell; But wants to bring us back into fellowship.
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The Lord’s teachings and qualifications to be disciples are just that;
By putting the Lord first in our lives, we will stay in a close walk with Him, and not fall off into sin.
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Next you said.......

You may be right.
If I remember correctly, I only compared disciples to the remnant, because both are a small part of the whole.

As for Gideon’s father.
Here is what he said..........
Judges 6:30-31
V.30 Then the men of the city said unto Joash, Bring out thy son, that he may die: because he hath cast down the altar of Baal, and because he hath cut down the grove that [was] by it.
V.31 And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye plead for Baal? will ye save him? he that will plead for him, let him be put to death whilst [it is yet] morning: if he [be] a god, let him plead for himself, because [one] hath cast down his altar.

Does this sound like a faithful follower of Baal? I don’t think so.
Joash was a perfect example of how far God’s people can get away from Him, if they get off into sin.
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Next you said........

Here again you are identifying the word “disciple” with “believer”(disciples/believers), and this is just the mistake, that this post is pointing out.

As for “an intermediate state”; This is not what I am saying.

Jesus preached to all those following him, to become disciples;
Just as preachers and teachers today, are encouraging believers to start studying there Bibles more.
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Here is a good example of the difference that I am taking about.

In 1 Corinthians 15:, we have the record of the Lord’s resurrection being proven.......
1 Corinthians 15:5-6
V.5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
V.6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Now this is clear; Before pentecost, there over 500 believers:
But how many of these were disciples?

Well even though the Lord Himself told them to wait for the power of the Holy Spirit, there were only 120 in the upper room, when the Holy Spirit fell.

Now this in itself is no proof of anything: Maybe they had other things going on that day or something, but the fact remains, that not all believers make the commitment to be students.
Now this is a fact.

But this fact is clouded, when we keep use terms like “disciples/believers”.

They are two different things.
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Lastly you said......

On the surface, this seems to be off-topic, but with a closer look it’s right on topic;

1 John 1:5-7
V.5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
V.6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
V.7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The subject being talked about it “fellowship” with God and with each other;
(There is a difference between a fellowship and a relationship.)

Our salvation gives us a relationship with God; and as long as we are dealing with our sin, we have a sweet “fellowship” with Him.

Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit John says.......
“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie”

If a professing believer, is living like the devil, and claims to be in fellowship with the Father, he is lying.

The Lord’s instructions for being a disciple, is so that we as believers, can retain a close fellowship with our heavenly Father.
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Also notice the next verse in this passage.......
1 John 1:8
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

We can badmouth Gideon and his father all we want, but we are still just dirty rotten sinners, that have been saved by Grace.
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I started this thread, with the statement, that this was “an important doctrine”;
(Being fully open, learning something and even being corrected
But as I have typed these last few responses, I am more convinced than ever, that this is indeed an important teaching, that needs to be clarified.



Hope to talk to you again.

 

Hi canadyjd

Nice to hear from you, but sorry to have offended you.
(I really am sorry.)

And you bring up some very interesting points.
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First I said........

Then you asked.......

Good question.

Today, a believer believes in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and believes that Jesus died for him personally: This makes it more than simply a head knowledge.

A person freely receives God’s gift of salvation, by exercising their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and what He did for them.

From that moment on, they are saved, and nothing can “un-save” them.
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Now when you compare this to being a disciple, it is a totally different thing.
A disciple of Christ, is a student of Christ; Someone who voluntarily decides to study God’s Word.
A “student of Christ”(disciple), can mean nothing more nor nothing less.

Now Jesus taught, that all those who were going to be “serious” about there Bible study, will have to make some serious commitments, in there life.
These are the qualifications, that Jesus gives us, if we want to be a disciple.

The fact it self, that Jesus placed these particular qualifications upon disciples, lets us know that not every Christian is going to accept these qualifications.
(We all have a free will, in the area of being obedient or disobedient.)
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Next you quoted me.........

Then you said.......

Once again, I apologize for my language.

Your statement that I was talking about was........

Now I know that Gideon’s father was not actually a Christian; But I believe that he was a believer. He was a member of God’s chosen people, and from his own testimony he demonstrated that he was trusting in the one true living God.

Now the fact, that he had an idol in his back yard, does confuse the matter somewhat; But the fact remains, that he was a believer.

Now I would like to respond to your question to me, as to how I could dare to call this man a believer, while having an altar of baal in his yard.
Just how bad of a sin, does a Christian have to commit, for us to stop calling him a brother?

I believe the Lord answered this question for us......
1 Corinthians 5:11
“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”

The “only sin”, that allows us to stop calling someone a believer, is the sin of preaching/believing, another Gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9
V.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
V.9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
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Next you quoted me.........

Then you said.......

Well Gideon’s father made a mistake;
By yielding to Peer pressure and placing that abomination in his yard.
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Lastly you said.........

I love it when people speak plainly;
And brother I agree with this entire statement.
(As long as those things, that are “consistent/inconsistent with a profession of faith”, are from the Bible and not just some man’s opinion.)

The LORD may speak to my heart, about not doing something;
But that does not mean, that this instruction applies to everyone else.



I very much enjoy our conversations, and hope to speak to you again.

 

Hi Tom Bryant

You said the other day.........

Have I made my point, clear to you yet?

 

Hi canadyjd

Sorry, for not including more Scripture references.

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You asked.........

No, I am not talking about “historical facts”;
(Even though every account in the Bible is an historical fact.)

What I am taking about believing, is the Biblical record of our Lord......
1 John 5:10-13
V.10 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
V.11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
V.12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
V.13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The head knowledge, that I am talking about, is just knowing “about” Jesus;
But salvation, is “knowing” Jesus(A personal relationship).
You talk to Him and He talks to you.
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Next you asked........

The Bible may talk about people collectively; But the message of the Gospel is directed to individuals.
Romans 5:8
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

1 Corinthians 15:3
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

Romans 14:15
“But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.”
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You also asked......

The Bible has a lot to say about being “serious”(sober); And about those believers who aren’t serious.
1 Peter 5:8
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”

1 Thessalonians 5:6
“Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.”

1 Peter 1:13
“Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;”

Those that aren’t sober, are referred to as being asleep.
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Also.......

I have also heard this description of a disciple(A disciple committed himself to person's teaching, not just to learn it, but to live it.)
Although some people are impressed by it, I just look at it as “extra-biblical”.
In the Bible, the word “disciple” means student.(Sitting at Jesus feet).
Some preachers “add” things like this to God’s Word, in order to “tug at heart strings”.

As for the “life changing aspect” of being born again. This is true; every Christian’s life is changed.

But the Bible teaches, that there will be more change, for those who totally commit their lives to Christ......
1 Corinthians 3:1-2
V.1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
V.2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

Now these saints in Corinth, were as saved as you or I;
But because of a lack of commitment(which led to carnality), they were unable to receive the deeper things of God.

These are the things, that you get at Jesus feet, when you are a disciple(student).
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Lastly you asked..........

The qualifications that I see are as follows.........
Luke 14:26-27
V.26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
V.27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

These are the qualifications, in order to “receive” deep instruction from the Lord.

We need to remember, that although being saved opens up our understanding to the Bible(1 Corinthians 2:13-16), the Bible is still “God’s Word”.

And He is the one, that allows us to see the deep things hidden within it.........
Proverbs 25:2
“[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.”

The Lord blesses us, when we put Him before everything/everyone else(according to these qualifications), in our study of God’s Word, and He reveals the deep things of God to us.

We are totally dependent upon Him, even after we are saved.
Getting saved isn’t the end, but the beginning.
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I do not have all the answers.

I am in the same boat as you are; Seeking to rightly divide the Word of God.

Therefore when I see God’s people(who are already saved), being giving these instructions from our Lord, it forces me to go back to the basics.......
What does the Bible say about it?