The MEANS of SALVATION...

1 Peter 1:23
"For you have not been born again of seed which is perishable but imperishable that is, through the living and enduring word of God. For,
'ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS
THE GRASS WHITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, BUT THE
WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.'
And this is the word that was preached to you."

In my view, the Bible teaches us that the Spirit's work is to regenerate, convict, gift, etc... The Spirit works through the word of God as a means to bless. The word is spirit and truth, but it is the Spirit who gives life. Words may make us cry or feel something in powerful ways, but they do not perform miracles. Without the work of the spirit, the word of God is insufficient to give life to a dead soul. I am not degrading the word of God (They are the words of the living God) as if it isn't set apart as God-Breathed truth, but I am saying that when cults get a hold of a bible and wrongly interpret things it is because they are spiritually discerned and are not capable in the flesh to understand God's words without the Holy Spirit, or better said- You need God.

 

The means of salvation is a second birth. You just as much control over that one as you did the first.

 

.....just about as much control as you have over the wind; it blows where it wills...

 

No, the word is God's written word that He gave us through men. The call of God is the powerful call that God uses to raise people from the dead, the powerful call that created the universe, and the same call that raises us spiritually from the dead. Effectual call is God's powerful call that causes things to happen to His intended effect without fail. Whenever Lazarus was in the grave He really didn't have a choice to rise or not.
no problem sir :smilewinkgrin:

Just because the Holy Spirit inspired these words when they were given doesn't mean He chooses to move through them every time they are mentioned. Yes the earth was created by God's effectual call to the earth to exist. The reason the Bible's words are powerful are b/c they are God's words and because God moves through them. This verse implies that we are given life through the word, not by the word. Now, if you think a dead person is made alive through the word without God's Spirit go ahead and try to preach to the clouds by reading Genesis 1 and see if another world is made . I probably sound like an idiot, but maybe that clears my point a little.

The word of God is definitely inspired by the Spirit when it was given so it would be perfect. So yes, it is a work of the Spirit. God does send His word ultimately by sending preachers, and you are right that we are instruments of God's work. I think I agree here. I would say that in regards to your John 6 quote, Jesus said God's words are spirit (lowercase) which I think means that they are spiritually discerned. This is why we need the Holy Spirit to discern them.

Sure, Ill try..

They are dead in sin and even though they might have a knowledge of what God's Word says and means they are to much in love with wickedness and passions of the flesh to ever make the heart change God calls us to for forgiveness. There is a difference between having knowledge and having a heart changing understanding and application to self by the fire wrought by the Spirit. I think of it more like an encounter with God than just some words that I buy. I can testify to this as it is a big part of my testimony. I knew the Gospel but it was dead to me even though I though I was alive, then 11 years later it came alive and I was new. I dont remember doing anything different although there was some weird sense of wonder that drew me in to God's word before I had a massive change. In my case there was no witnesses or people involved that I spoke to, and when I did I got horrible advice that only hurt me. Oddly enough this never even came close to making me comfortable or fall away because there was a strange determination and an inward strength that prevented me from doing anything but praying and searching Scripture with a totally new hate for sin, love for God, and a hundred other new feelings and changes I never had before.

 

The Great One in Three needs no means for the eternal salvation of His elect.
Not the preacher, not the gospel, not the Bible.
The eternal redemption of all His people is at present time a finished fact, and I dare anyone to say the Lord has not actually done any redemption and should get back to work.
However, the gospel salvation of many of His elect is an ongoing task, and this is the work that those in the ministry are called to do, albeit not everyone of God's people will benefit here in this time world.

 

Submission is required in any call of God. The effectual call was submitted to as to go preach the Gospel where God said. The Gospel call to salvation hinges on belief but solely depends upon submission. In the case of Lazarus the call to come forth had to be received and he to respond in submission. To mirror the Gospel call is this instance given, not to build doctrine from. This raising of Lazarus was given for the sign that Jesus is God, not so a doctrine of any other kind can be determined by it.

 

Skandelon

You are 100% correct that Calvinism negates the living and powerful word of God. It makes the word's of Christ secondary. It makes the death and resurrection of Christ secondary. Calvinists don't believe there is any power in the gospel, they are made alive when God regenerates them. They don't have to repent, they don't have to hear or believe, nothing.

No, God does everything for them. They say so many times. They are so uninvolved in their salvation I am surprised they can believe themselves saved at all.

But you are wasting your time. You could show them a thousand verses contradicting their doctrine. It is easy, most of the Bible contradicts them. But they aren't going to listen for a second, they don't want to.

 

Because it is a spiritual message and people without the Holy Spirit are spiritually discerned. Those who are born of the flesh are flesh and those who are born of the Spirit are spirit. I think a Calvinist and non-Calvinist would agree that without the work of the Holy Spirit the heart of man is lost... I may be wrong about non-cals

I think your missing the point Im trying to make. People may acknowledge God and sometimes even Jesus as Savior and Lord, but for a true change in the inner man from self/sin/independance to saving faith in Jesus is a different story. I understood that Jesus died on the cross for me when I was 11 and I wanted to be saved, but yet I wanted nothing to do with Jesus or His will. To have an authentic conversion you need God's help in every way, and that is the very essence of faith.

Believing something to be true is one thing, but CHOOSING to follow Christ is another. If the demons can believe it, as James indicates, then why can't a natural man?[/QUOTE]

I have stepped away and recalculated hundreds of times. I will continue to test my beliefs for the rest of my life, but there is absolutely no way of getting around our complete need for God to rescue us. Im sure you have been a believer for many years longer than I have and you have studied a lot more, but with all respect, pull every bible verse about man and tell me the analysis is good. It is very uncomforting and does not look good for a man left by himself. Not only does the fallen state of man bear witness to his need, but I believe there are numerous Scriptures that make us crumble and desperate in the hands of God, and I don't mean 99% desperate. I also don't mean we need a little help to get us on our feet, I mean that we need God 100% and that is faith we trust and rely on Him, not us.

 

In Romans 5, when Paul speaks of death, he is speaking of a legal judgement. If a person commits certain crimes, they may be "sentenced to death" or the "death sentence" pronounced upon them. This doesn't mean they are dead, but it does mean they will be put to death.

And Jesus showed this.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus said this to living people, so they were not physically dead. No, they are condemned, that is, a judgement of death has been placed on them. They are "condemned to die" or have received the "death sentence".

That Paul was speaking of a legal judgement or condemnation is clearly stated in verse 18.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Paul says here by Adam came judgement to condemnation. It is the death penalty.

Now this verse is a real problem for Calvinism, because it says by Adam's sin judgement unto condemnation came upon all men, but then it also says by the righteousness of Jesus came the free gift of justification of life upon all men.

Every Calvinist will agree that "all men" when speaking of the judgement means all of mankind, but then they will turn around and say "all men" when speaking of the free gift of justification of life only means the elect.

But that is impossible, this verse is showing parellelism. "All men" in both cases means exactly that, all of mankind without exception. You cannot say all men means all men in one case, and only the elect in another.

 

spiritual death- means not spiritually alive and unresponsive in spirit
physical death- means not physically alive and unresponsive in flesh

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes."

The comparison is that the same way God must raise people who are physically dead, He must raise people who are spiritually dead.