Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

Concur. Paul has clearly identified believing Gentiles and then raised the possibility that they will meet an undesirable end.

I do not see how this text is not relevant to the matter at issue.

 

That much is true.

And of that forgiveness revoked lesson in Matt 18 - Christ himself states OUTSIDE the context of the parable "SO shall my Father do to each one of YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

The logic there is lacking.

it would be like saying that Adam was not really created alive - if in fact he was doomed to the 2nd death at his fall - and without a Savior would be dead.

"it makes no sense".

This is the same argument used in the book "The Fath Explained" (a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism) about what happens if the Catholic Church is wrong about bread become the body of Christ -- they argue that this means that Christ lied and the Apostles must have been wrong.

That is not even remotely "Bible exegesis of Romans 11".

To exegete a chapter you have to first - actually look at it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 11 is in fact devastating to the OSAS argument - so one OSAS solution is to request that we not discuss the chapter at all.

But as it turns out - that is not as compelling a Bible solution as they may have first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: Open your blinded eyes. :laugh:

Cannot you read rules 1-5 of post #239? :wavey::smilewinkgrin:

 

First, where does it say the Gentiles in question are believers? I think the context of speaking of Israel being broken off as a whole is speaking to the Gentiles as a whole, not believers. Part of this reason is a true believer would not "boast" that they were grafted in and Israel was broken off, and if a Gentile thought they were grafted in for the sole fact they were a Gentile, they would not understand salvation in the first place. That is NOT the attitude becoming of a believer. Paul is clearly speaking of non fruit bearing Gentiles with this attitude, the same attitude the unbelieving Jews had in rejecting the Messiah when they were broken off as a whole.

Second, how exactly does one become "un-regenerated"?

 

To get back on topic let's have HP or Bob directly answer Steaver's post here, paying attention to each one of the verses posted. For once, I would like to see an intelligent response without some rabbit trail going off somewhere else. Will they stand up to the challenge? I doubt it.

 

I have an obligation to attend to, but as soon as I can I will reply directly to the texts in question.

 

Hint - the Romans 11 topic is not about Israel - it is about the warning in Romans 11 to "you gentiles" that "stand only by your faith".

If you had actually read the posts or the chapter I am sure you would already be fully aware of that by now.

I envite you to read it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I have, many times over. Start another thread.

 

As you wish

 

I do not see how such a position can be sustained. The letter is written to the Jew + Gentile church at Rome, that is, a set of believers. Now obviously Paul can and does make observations about non-believers, both Jew and Gentile. But when he makes the statement about Gentiles being "broken off", he is quite clearly addressing those of faith:

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I think this is extremely questionable - your premise appears to be that true believers are instantly transformed into a state of advanced character development that places them above things like boasting. I suggest that it is clear that things go not work this way.

I disagree. It is clear from Romans 11, not to mention Romans 9, that a major theme of Paul's argument is that, in fact, God has intentionally hardened (most) Jews precisely so that the possibility of salvation can be extended to Gentiles.

I politely suggest that you have implicitly bought into a "one-step" model of the justification / salvation of the human person - that one minute "we're lost" and the next "we're saved". I do not think the scriptures support such a position.

 

Agreed.

It is very difficult to miss that point.

However DHK asks that we only discuss that problem with OSAS on its own thread-

So I encourage all who wish to explore that text to click here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64338


in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: The question should be, will I end up making heaven my eternal home if in fact I continue on the path I am on?.... NOT ‘how does one become un-regenerate.’ The question should be, will ones belief(s) in the end simply be judged as believing in vain? It might even be, will a Holy and Just God fail to judge my actions in the same manner He has promised to judge all sin in the end, knowing full well that God is NOT a respecter of persons?

 

Here is what I will be judged on:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God will not judge me for my sin (in relation to my salvation).
I can never be separated from the love of God, or even from God himself.

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

God does not remember my sins.
I will never be condemned by them.

 

HP: Boy are you ever in for a serious surprise if in fact you have any sins of which you have not repented of. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall ALL likewise perish.

 

HP: Hogwash. Do you think you are teaching a bunch of blind deaf mutes? What's gone??? How is sin (supposed to be the old manner in which we lived) 'gone' if you are CONTINUING TO SIN AS WE ARE TOLD ALMOST DAILY ON THIS LIST, THAT WE ALL SIN AND ALL ARE CONTINUALLY FOUND TO BE LIARS???? Is God a blind deaf mute as well?

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

And I did. I put my faith and trust in Christ, at which time I repented of my rebellion toward God, and was saved.

There is no teaching in the Bible that says "One must repent of all their sins" in order to be saved.

 

HP: What does it mean to repent DHK? Can one be repentant and still continue in their same old sins in the same old way? What is the evidence that one has repented? Was John the Baptist beside himself when he required ‘fruit’ of repentance before he would baptize them?