How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

Indeed.

As John says in 1John 3 - "sin is violation of the LAW"

But the same law that is EXTERNAL and on tablets of STONE under the old covenant (the covenant of Obey and LIVE) - by which ALL are sinners and ALL are condemned (see Gal 3 and Romans 3 - showing that the Law binds ALL mankind - ALL the world under the sentence of death) -- is the LAW that is written "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant of Heb 8.

Thus Paul can say "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law".

It was why James can quote from the Ten Commandment LAW calling it the "LAW of Liberty" and then say that we are to "LIVE as those who are to be JUDGED" by that Law.

in 1Cor 7:19 "But what MATTERS is KEEPING the COMMANDMENTs of GOD"

And Christ can say of the PRECROSS commandments "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments". John 14:15.

Christ is the "I AM" of the OT -- that thundered His own commandments from Sinai.

He says "Before Abraham was I AM"

in Christ,

Bob

 

That is correct except for the notion that Jews are the author of scripture.

Paul is clear "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from GOD"
So also is Peter clear on this point "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke FROM GOD".

As Romans 3 and Gal 3 point out - all of mankind are proven to be in transgression - in violation of the Law of God - and thus ALL mankind need a Savior.

So many of our Baptist friends understand the relationship of the LOST person to the Law of God - they see the problem clearly.

But what about the Romans 6 position of the SAVED person in relationship to the LAW of God? That seems to be more difficult for some to see.

In Romans 6 Paul states that If you claim that you MUST sin - that you cannot obey as a saved born-again saint - then you are in fact returned to your lost condition of SLAVERY to sin. In Romans 6 Paul says you can either be a slave to Righteousness or a slave to SIN. If you choose the "I cannot stop sinning" route then Paul says at the end of Romans 6 "the wages of SIN is DEATH" (meaning the Rev 20 - second death).

In 1Cor 10 Paul says "NO sin has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted BEYOND that which YOU are able. He will WITH the temptation provide the way of ESCAPE".

Many argue in modern times that God is either not that faithful as the text says - or is not able to provide the level of victory and strength needed by the weakened condition of sinful man EVEN if that man is a born-again saint.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That previous point gets us to the subject of "sacred vs profane sins".

Even in the Baptist church the pastor cannot be "slave" to adultery. He cannot claim "I am trying to stop - but I just don't have the complete victory at all times -- because of my sinful nature".

Now there IS a "sacred sin" there that the Baptist WILL allow - which is "an immoral thought" by the Pastor. He is welcome to that all day long - but he may not actually commit the sin and then claim that his sinful nature is just TOO much for him.

Not if he wants to continue being the pastor.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed - that method is getting used used and overused here.

:laugh:

Indeed exegesis is getting tossed under the bus by those who promote OSAS while ignoring Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Doubting Thomas points out that the OSAS position ignores everything in Romans 11 regarding the "inconvenient details" of GENTILES who "STAND ONLY BY THEIR FAITH" being warned to "FEAR for if He did not spare the unbelieving Jews that fell neither will He spare you" -- and the "excuse" used to ignore that part of the test is the "mention" of "Jews" or the "mention" of Israel any place at all in Romans 11.

Stever

1. - you are MAKING Doubting Thomas' point by your reference above to the Jews WITHOUT making reference to Gentiles found In the chapter.

2. IN the Romans 9 - the Vessels "of mercy" according to Paul include the faithful Jews "Even US whom He called not from among the Jews ONLY but also from among the GENTILES" Rom 9:24

3. The 7000 faithful - in Romans 11 represent the faithFUL Jews.


Thus we have the individual case dealt with in BOTh Romans 9 and 11 - where some Jews are faithFUL and are vessels of mercy -- while others fall away due to unbelief.

Not that surprising given what we know about the Gospel - as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Lev 18 God provides a list of sins for which he condemned the non-Bible non-Jewish heathen nations that were in Caanan before Israel.

In Gen 15:16 God tells Abraham that he is not going to inherit any land - in his lifetime because "the sin of the Amorite is not yet complete".

In Romans 1 Paul says that the "barbarians" are "without excuse" for their sins (of which homosexuality is listed as well as others) because the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen through the things that have been made".

in Romans 2 Paul says of the gentile that has no access at all to scripture "they do instinctively the things of the law SHOWING the works of the Law WRITTEN on the heart" - which is the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit that Paul says in Romans 2 - is done by "circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit"

In John 16 Christ Himself states that the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In 1John 3 - John says that "SIN is violation of the Law of God".

The TEN Commandments have always been upheld in scripture as "the Law of God". In Romans 7 Paul points to the general principle of SIN and condemnation of sinners - he shows that it is the Ten Commandment Law of God that is condemning all - even Gentiles. (That is apart from the New Covenant where that SAME Law is written on the tablets of the human heart)

in Christ,

Bob

 

Agreed - "no temptation" and as James 2:13-15 points out - temptation leads to sin.

In 2cor 10:4 Paul says that as Saints we are "taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the OBEDIENCE of Christ"

As John says starting in 1john 1:9 "if WE confess our SINS He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned we make him a liar... I write these things to you that you SIN NOT - but if anyone DOES sin we have an advocate with the Father".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Yes I think Christians -- born-again saints choose rebellion at times and John is saying that when that happens they have an Advocate with the Father in the form of the High Priestly ministry of Christ.

All that Christian has to do is confess their guilt and claim the promise of forgiveness. Not only will Christ forgive the sin - but He will cleanse the soul of unrighteous thoughts and desires - IF that person chooses to submit to God.

As James states -- sin is not something that gobbles up the saint - it begins with temptation and it can also begin with sinful desires that are "indulged" and nurtured.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I agree with this.

In Romans 7 Paul describes his battle with sin. He quotes from the Law (the Ten Commandments as we see in Rom 7) and he says that in his mind he fully agrees with it.

But he says that he sees "Sin in him" at war with the law of his mind.

So that is the state of the saved saint - who struggles with sin (where sin as John points out in 1John 3 is the transgression of God's Law).

But in Romans 8 Paul shows (as in Romans 6) Paul shows how victory over sin is obtained by those who "walk" according to the Spirit. Thus the saved born-again saint is not left in the helpless Romans 7 state. So Paul can say in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Thus the "good tree" of Matt 7 (pre-cross) is the one that "DOES the will of the Father" not simply someone who "hears only".

And as we see in Romans 2:11-13 God says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified" - iin Romans 2 Paul says this applies to BOTH Jew AND Gentile.

in Christ,

Bob