1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Limited Sovereignty?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by quantumfaith, Apr 23, 2010.

  1. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    I heard this question posed to Ravi Zacharias recently on one of his radio programs.

    Does God grant "limted sovereignty" to his creatures or is that a contradiction?

    Would love to have thoughts about this issue, if possible without degenerating into the classic C vs. A debate. Please feel free to "argue" your thoughts biblically, philosophically and rationally.

    Thanks, hope to enjoy reading your input.
     
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Man has dominion;

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Dominion is soveregin rule.
    MB
     
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sovereign is absolute authority. Either you are sovereign or you are not. ANY thing we are able to do is because our sovereign God allows us to do it. God doesn't rely on anything from us.

    As MB pointed out, man can have dominion over something, but that comes from God.
     
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think that was the point of the question, does (can) God "grant" his creatures some degree of "limited sovereignty"?
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,136
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ravi Zacharias is a preacher I like listening to.
    I would be very interested how he answered the question, if you remember ?
     
  6. Cypress

    Cypress New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    It doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all. The issue would seem to be what is granted to men and what is reserved by God. Things granted by God could be as follows. A simple case might be parents over small children. More complex could be leaders of people i.e. kings, etc. Thing reserved could be eternal judgement, lifespan, etc. There is no reason God cannot relinquish sovereignty if He so desires. If He can't, He really is not sovereign to begin with.
     
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    http://www.supload.com/listen?s=3edxGK
     
  8. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    And if he does relinquish sovereignty, He isn't fully sovereign anymore, as He has given up some sovereignty.

    No, God can grant his creatures some degree of dominion or authority, but not sovereignty. Limited sovereignty is a oxymoron.
     
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    I was "doing my best" to quote the question as it was presented to Dr. Zacharias, personally for me the terminology of "dominion or authority" can be interpreted as a certain degree of "sovereignty".
     
  10. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sovereignty just isn't the right word there.(Saying God can allow people to have choices is correct.) There are no degrees of sovereignty. People do have powers and authority here, but God is still in control. He is still supreme even when allowing others to make choices. It is just that the term sovereignty can't be "limited." Almost like perfect, you are either perfect or you are not perfect. I think it is important to use terms right because some people can use that to teach something bad. To say that people can have choices isn't an attack on God sovereignty. He can allow people to make choices.
     
  11. Cypress

    Cypress New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    That would be correct and it would also be according to His desire. Is there some reason that God is unable to do this if He so desired? Does it stem from a definition of God that is incompatible with God self limiting?
     
    #11 Cypress, Apr 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2010
  12. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    "A limited sovereignty given by a totally sovereign being are not mutually exclusive terms". (R Zacharias)
     
  13. Cypress

    Cypress New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    Works for me!
     
  14. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    :thumbsup:
     
  15. Cypress

    Cypress New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    It would have been a more accurate representation of my opinion if I said that God is no less sovereign if He self-limits since it is an excercise of His sovereignty.
     
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
  17. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    I would agree with that.
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    NKJV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

    Yes, the koine text includes the definite article.

    Is God still sovereign even though the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one?

    Hint: It's a rhetorical question (see Revelation 20:10).

    HankD​
     
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    Could you please clarify the implications of Rev 20:10, my limited and finite thought processes are not following you.

    As per the thread, Dr. Z, in his response to the question was qualifying that mankind is granted "limited sovereignty" (free will). A point with which I most assuredly agree, in my reading of scripture I feel it is abundantly clear that "limited sovereignty" was part of God's design for creation from the beginning. This "design" in no way limits, interferes with or hinders the ultimate total sovereignty of God, He is the one who has established all the parameters within which all of creation must function. (much like boundary value problems in differential equations.)
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That was my point (underline ultimate).

    Some might say that "limited sovereignty" is actually a "delegated authority".

    Its probably just semantics, but I woulld prefer "delegated authority" to "limited sovereignty".

    ...the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away...

    Though the whole world is presently under the authority of the wicked one it is a delegated or allowed authority which clearly shall be remitted.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    HankD
     
Loading...