The Moral Law's Standard of Righteousness

Those who enjoy "circling back" to the condition of the lost when it comes to the Law of God - will always have plenty of texts that talk about the fact that "The lost are lost" and that "all mankind have sinned".

And of course - we can all agree with them on that "condition of the lost" and the "POV of the LOST" when confronted with God's Word - Scripture - the Commandments of God.

But it is a joy for many Christians to note that the "perspective of the lost" is not the only one available in scripture when it comes to obeying the Word of God.

For we also have the "perspective of the saved saint" who "Perseveres in doing good" Rom 2:7 who "hears Christ's words and obeys them ... producing good fruit" Matt 7, who considers that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

But as long as the only condition "allowed" is the condition of the lost - then yes - we can circle back to the texts that speak of the ungodly and the lost sinner who is condemned by the Law of God.

Paul addresses this johnny-one-note problem in Heb 6.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits

in Christ,

Bob

 

True - the perspective of the saved saint when it comes to God's Law is very different from that of the lost sinner.

Justification that is past - changes the status from lost to saved and it is not based on works.

That much is true.

That much is false as there is nothing in those texts about "prior to faith" or "justified prior to faith" no not there NOR in all of scripture.

By contrast we see in Romans 10 "with the heart man BELIEVES resulting in righteousness and with the mouth confesses RESULTING in salvation".

And From Heb 11 "Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE please Him".

That much is true.

(BTW Justification by faith - is not the same idea as justification BEFORE faith that you posted above)

How so?

Circular reasoning - I never claimed that justification past is "incomplete".

The fact that you can lose your salvation as we see in Matt 18, John 15, Rom 11, (and all the Perseverance texts I listed previously this morning) is not a claim that you were not in fact born-again, and accepted by God as a saved saint at one time.

That much is true - and it would do no good to simply circle back to the condition of the lost when addressing those texts.

True. The life of the saint is one that is walked in the Spirit (Romans 8) and is covered by the atoning blood of Christ.

Actually if you were sinless no "justification" is applicable at all - Jesus has no need to be "justified" at His ascension to enter heaven - because He had no sin.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Point taken. I missed that.:thumbs:

 

You are justified at the point of salvation - at the new birth "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" Rom 5:1.

You get the part where the lost need salvation.

You get the part where a man is justified at the moment of the new birth - such that if he died that instant - his reward is heaven.

But you miss the part of Perseverance of the saints - so you try to imagine Bible instruction about how the lost are to persevere and not to fail to persevere.

Which is where your OSAS filter is not helping you with the text.

At what point did you find me saying "you are being justified"??

I never argue for that.

Rather I argue for the justification that is past in Romans 5:1 and for the justification that is future - in Romans 2:13-16.

The justification that is past - changes your status from lost to saved.

And for the saints - the justification that is future merely demonstrates the Matt 7 principle of Christ "by their fruits you shall know them".

For the lost - it unmasks their pretense.

But the lost do not "Become saved" in that future Rom 2:11-13 Justification (which of course they fail to get) nor do the saved become lost in that future Rom 2:11-16 Justification (in fact that do have "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22).

in Christ,

Bob

 

In American criminal courts the verdict is either "guilty" or "not guilty." The verdict is NEVER "innocent." Citizens continually complain that people who obviously are not innocent of the charges get off on a technicality.

Seems to me that Christianity is based upon getting off on a technicality.

 

You have stated the OSAS-filtered view of justification well and you have exposed its weakness.

Matt 18 - the fully forgiven - experiences "forgiveness revoked" and is turned over to the torturers.

In Ezek 18 - the righteous dies the second death for failing to persevere.

In John 15 the branches IN Christ are removed from Christ and cast into the fire - destroyed - reduced to ashes.

in 1Cor 9 - Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself am disqualified".

In Romans 11 those who STAND by faith - are warned to persevere for "IF God did not spare them - neither will He spare you".

The problems with the OSAS-filtered view are myriad.

In God's Free WILL system that requires that the saints "choose" to persevere rather than "growing weary and losing heart" Heb 12:1-4.

This is THE circular argument masterpiece of all time!!

It argues that when a LOST person fails to CONTINUE being saved - he proves he was never saved - because he failed to keep ON being saved.

It is the worst, most tortured logic I have ever run across. YEt THAT is the degree of bible-bending that is required by the OSAS argument when texts like Gal 5:4 "FALLen from Grace..SEVERED from Christ", Romans 11 "you stand only by your FAITH ... if He did not spare them neither will He spare you" and Heb 6 come up.

I can't believe anybody takes it seriously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Sorry, but I find that view very limited and incongruent with what happens to the Christian upon rebirth. In fact, I think that particular view to be crass and ill informed. IMO

 

The problem is that we have Paul speaking of a future justification as well as a present justification:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

I suggest that we cannot be faithful to what Paul actually writes with this view that justification is a "one-time" event. We need to do the hard work of accomodating the fact that he writes of a present justification by faith and a future justification by good works.

As I have argued in other threads, I think we can make this all work together by accounting for the "Spirit" teaching (e.g. in Romans 8). It is indeed true that we are jusfified by faith in the present precisely because faith results in the gift of the Spirit which transforms the believer into the kind of person who will indeed pass the future "good works" judgement described in Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5 (and other places).

 

Certainly it is true that Paul refers to future justification in Romans 2:11-6 and in past justification in Romans 5:1-2.

Past justification changes our salvation status from lost to saved.

Future justification is based on the "by their fruits you shall know them" rule of Christ in Matt 7. It reveals the state of the person - it does not change it.

Thus a saved saint that "perseveres in doing good" Rom 2:7 is approved in that future justification.

Thus they will be included in the succeeding examples of Romans 2:4-19.

But the righteous that falls away (as discussed in Ezek 18, Gal 5:4, Heb 3, Romans 11, John 15:1-6 ...) will be "revealed" to be one who is no longer born-again, no longer walking in the Spirit.

Thus they will be included in the failing examples of Romans 2:4-29.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are trying to make the parable walk on all fours.

Christ applies the parable directly saying "So shall my FATHER do to each one of YOU". At no point is the "application" of the parable "So shall YOU be enabled to turn over your brother to the torturers".

You are trying to bend this point to be about whether the servants can actually deliver each other to hell. Notice that in the model the GREAT debt is the one that the servant owes to God.

The miniscule debt is what servants owe each other and can be paid without the loss of life.

But in applying that model to Us Christ said it is what God the FATHER will do to US if we do not forgive the tiny-debt of our brother against us. (Hint: Hitler)

It is tiny as compared to the our HUGE debt of sin before God.

Ahhh - another point of "agreement".

Christ is arguing the case to the saved. Christ argues that out of our gratitude for our own case where WE have received forgiveness (of our GREAT debt before God) we are to forgive others their tiny-debts (by comparison) against us.

The is a horrible bend-and-wrench of the text - for it is not merely peace with God that is "owed" or "suffered" and relieved in our "GREAT debt" but it is hell itself. Ezek 18:4 "The soul that sins it shall die" and as we see in Rom 2:23 "The wages of sin is death".

The GREAT debt forgiven each of us - (illustrated as the massive DEBT of Matt 18) is the debt of sinning against God.

In the Matt 18 parable we START off needing forgiveness of that GREAT debt and it is only AFTER obtaining it that we are expected to forgive others.

Wrong.

In Ezek 18 - the righteous all live - and the wicked all die. There is no such thing as "the righteous got sick and died" or "the righteous get old and die just like the wicked" in Ezek 18.

In Ezek 18 - they all are subject to God's judgment. ALL of God's people live and ALL of the wicked die. That is not true in this life in any context - it is only true in the next.

At the time Ezekiel is in Babylon in Ezek 18 - you are trying to bend and wrench this text to claim that Babylonian law only killed the wicked and always saved the righteous -as if this was the great gospel message of God to Ezekiel.

Sadly that may be the path the OSAS needs - but it is not exegetically sound in the least. (Hint Daniel 2, 3, 6).

Again - a case of bend and wrench of the text to protect OSAS and it only works if you ignore the inconvenient details of vs 1-6 as you do in your review of John 15.

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


In the actual text it is God that is taking action to remove and burn the branches.



Every branch "IN ME" that does not bear fruit .. is removed. As we both know - there is no salvation apart from Christ.

No good way to get around it.

Indeed - just one of the blessings of being connected to Christ.

But your whole OSAS argument is based on the idea of "saved anyway" apart from Christ. A concept that the Bible does not support.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It implies that Paul said "After preaching the REWARDs of heaven to others I myself might get fewer rewards than my listeners".

Such a bend and wrench of the text might be necessary for OSAS - but it not supported by the text itself.

At the very least you argue the non-Biblical "Saints in heaven with no crown" as the problem that Paul is trying to avoid. Totally a wrench.

Let's look at context.

 

The text you conveniently leave out in John 6:40 is the one that says Christ is speaking of one who actually believes being lost. While that person believes he cannot be lost.

"Everyone who beholds the Son AND BELIEVES" and "and who at one time Believed".

In the parable of the sower Christ points to ground where the seed "springs to LIFE" and later dies.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Jesus gives eternal life....not probation life. There is no "good" news for someone who wants to believes you can fall away.....who are you fooling? You cannot have the peace of God if you don't know if your at peace with God for one day to the next. That's not peace....that's a temporary restraining order.