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A little help from my BB friends

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010.

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  1. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    I am calling out to those better educated than myself. Is there a phrase, word, or term to describe the practice often used by some preachers where they make a statement, use a verse that somewhat supports it when taken out of context, then start referencing scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with what is being stated, chase these for so long that everyone forgets the original argument, then come back to say that proves statement 1. I hear this often, mostly on radio, TV, etc. I most recently heard this when a preacher was saying that there is no Hell for non beleivers, just a death.

    Also, is this the type of instruction Paul is referring to in Colossians 2?


    Not really a debate, just wanting to know what this practice is called.
     
    #1 thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Well, this will probably only be a little help..

    I call them bull-horn sermons. A point here, and a point there...and a lot of bull inbetween. :laugh:
     
    #2 ReformedBaptist, Jun 28, 2010
  3. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    I like that, but I was thinking that there is actually a term for this type of agument or debate. very similar to what politicians do when asked a tough question. Talk until people forget what you are talking about.
     
    #3 thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010
  4. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    There have been sermons that allude to a problem, and there is really no problem there. For example, I do not know how many sermons I have heard (not lately) on the evils of the Catholic Church on Sunday night, when the only people there are a scattering of members. A speaker will pick out verses to support his points, but the points did not need to be made anyhow.

    There have also been sermons I have heard on TV and radio that make a case for Baptism in order to be saved by taking verses (one in 1 Peter) out of context. I have also heard speakers refer to Hebrews 6:4-6 as a reference passage for the ability of someone to lose their salvation. Sorry, I do not know the name for it.
     
    #4 saturneptune, Jun 28, 2010
  5. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Are you talking about a deliberate deceiving or a type of spiritual ignorance?
     
    #5 Scarlett O., Jun 28, 2010
  6. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    Either / Or
     
    #6 thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010
  7. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    My last pastor called it three things: dissembling, wrongly dividing the word of truth, and proof texting.

    He also pointed out that while most pastors preach from their favorite version and sometimes bring in another version to clarify a passage, the current habit of quoting umpteen different versions to get them to say what you want is just another form of this.

    And then he would sum it all up as lying.
     
    #7 nodak, Jun 28, 2010
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    OK, you've got me on word hunt this morning. :type:

    I've read Colossians 2 and I think that the passage you are referencing could be what you are talking about. I've read some other passages on false teachings, too.

    You are right. There has GOT to be a word for this. Taking a "pet" scripture out of context to control a congregation and use other scriptures not having any bearing on the topic to push a personal agenda - not the Holy Spirit's. I thought of this example. Mark 16:16a. I've heard people (quit recently) use this passage to assert that baptism is essential for salvation.

    The only word that my mind keeps coming back to is manipulative preaching.

    Manipulation. Duplicity. Those words really aren't labels. Just descriptions. I know that you are looking for a label.

    I hope someone can come up with a word, because this is driving me crazy. :laugh:
     
    #8 Scarlett O., Jun 28, 2010
  9. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    If I may intrude, from google

    Definitions of isogesis on the Web:

    Reading something into a document. One starts with a belief and searches a document for supporting passages. Often used with reference to the Bible. A potential hazard is that the interpreter may quote a verse out of context with considering the rest of the passage or the rest of the Bible.
    www.translationdirectory.com/glossaries/glossary007_i.htm
     
    #9 billwald, Jun 28, 2010
  10. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    We may have a winner.
     
    #10 thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010
  11. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    I like it when we get the "Church Attendance" message when the only people that are there are the ones who show up every service.
     
    #11 thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    When I taught logic in college, using a false (unrelated/misinterpreted text) to support a claim, it is an "appeal to authority".

    This is - as you illustrated in the op - usually "piled on" with more and more unrelated proof-texts, thinking that there is validity in weight!!

    If that were the case, at 320# I'm always right! :laugh:
     
    #12 Dr. Bob, Jun 28, 2010
  13. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    So what we really have is an "isogesis appeal to authority" sound like that would hurt:D

    I wonder if these people really believe the rubish they spue or are intentionally misleading folks. I mean I understand we have differing understanding on some points of scripture, but most have some sort of valid argument for the beliefs. Other seam to just make up stuff and try to find someone who will believe it. I will now step down from my soapbox.
     
    #13 thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010
  14. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I call that eisegesis. That kind of building to a point I call prooftexting.
     
    #14 gb93433, Jun 28, 2010
  15. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    That is the term I was looking for when I started the thread.

    Using definitions from the web for eisegesis and isogesis, along with Dr. Bob's "appeal to authority", I see a combination of all of these being used.

    A couple of folks mentioned "proof texting". IS "proof texting" a negative if done in context? I know it is often used improperly, but can it not also be used positely? For exmple if one is speaking about God's love for us in I John 4 can not one use John 3:16 as a "proof text"?
     
    #15 thegospelgeek, Jun 28, 2010
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I call it lousy preaching. That's the technical term for it. :laugh:
     
    #16 Amy.G, Jun 28, 2010
  17. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    To use the words of anything apart from its context to prove a point falls down when someone finds the foundation to be full of holes.

    One can use a Sears catalog to prove most anything that way.
     
    #17 gb93433, Jun 28, 2010
  18. valiant4truth

    valiant4truth New Member

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    I believe that the term you are looking for is "eisegesis." It is a word that means "to read into." It is the opposite of the proper form of scriptural expostion called "exegesis." Exegesis means "to lead out." It is the idea of examine a text and bringing out the actual meaning rather than imposing upon it some thought or idea.
     
    #18 valiant4truth, Jun 29, 2010
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Well, now, that's a dilly--a "dictionary" misspelling a word, "isogesis" for "eisegesis." The word is a term from hermeneutics from the Greek meaning literally "reading into." So in eisegesis you read your own meaning into the passage instead of trying to get the meaning out of the passage, which is exegesis ("reading out of").
     
    #19 John of Japan, Jun 29, 2010
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