something truly frightening learned at VBS

This is a very odd combination. I don't see how those things can go together, they seem like oil and water to me...but that's just me.

These are problems that all kinds of churches face--of every denomination. But, I think the Baptists might be more susceptible to these man-centered fads.

No need for forgiveness. I completely agree with you. Every good Calvinist pastor I know never assumes the Gospel. What is more, they never preach the Gospel without calling on people to respond to the Gospel. Now, that doesn't mean there is an invitation at the end of the service, but an invitation is still made.

I think it might depend on what area your church was/is in. What you are describing here--though it became part of main-stream Baptist churches--is not historically germane to Baptists. This grew out of the revivalism of Charles Finney.

I think, though, like the Puritans did--there are periods of awakening for some, moments of awakening for some, lightning bolts of awakening for some... Even the great Jonathan Edwards had to live with his father questioning whether or not Jonathan was a true Christian or not.

I think it is very, very healthy to examine ourselves daily (or better hourly) to make sure we are, in fact, saved.

Indoctrination verses Education is a huge problem. You are so horribly correct in what you say.

Many churches do not seek to have a culture of discipleship. Rather, as you've stated, they want to have cookie-cutter, indoctrinated Christians.

I think you are right here as well. But, the point you've hit on here, I think, shows a problem with the church, more than anything else.

Here's an example: In a church I served, when someone walked the aisle they would be voted on right there as to membership, baptism, etc. I think this is dreadfully bad! This practice gives no opportunity to determine if the twin fruits of repentance and faith are present.

Our church (and some others I know) require new members to go through a 6-week new members class, have an interview with the pastor or another elder--and in that interview that have to describe the Gospel in a certain time limit--sign the church covenant, sign the church's statement of faith, etc.

So, buy the time we get to vote on them for membership, we have become known to them and they have become known to us.

Easy-membership is a plague on our modern churches.

Praise God for He blesses and He is faithful when we are faithless.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

I too, think theses points are valid and well put - save for the couching or covering with Calvinism. Even if it were proven true what you say about Calvinistic churches tending to be more doctrinally sound - which I do not concede - would nonetheless NOT prove Calvinism as legitimate, or "the right way to go."

I appreciate your amendment in another post that "Calvinism is not the answer."

 

I appreciate the seriousness and thoroughness with which you approach membership in your church - however, it does not appear as thoroughly biblical...

Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

But, context really matters in these verses (overall context of the day). The persons in each of these passages had some connection to and familiarity with Scripture (in these cases the Old Testament). So, they were not in a vacuum.

What is more, when we examine the early church, prospective members (new converts) were required to go through what was called a catechumen period which, in many cases, lasted up to three years. During this time, new converts (who likely knew nothing of the Old Testament and were probably needing to be de-detoxified from their pagan upbringing) were taught doctrine and their lives were closely observed to ensure, as much as possible, that these persons were, in fact, true and sincere believers.

Now, I don't think I'd go as far as three years, but most churches don't consider a person more than three seconds. And those churches who might give, say, three minutes of consideration...the consideration is not much more than a dog-and-pony show and does not come close to probing in any discerning way. This leads to false assurances of salvation and a whole host of other problems.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

In my opinion it seems that the Great apostacy is upon us all. We have sat silent while Satan has been working over time. It's not just your church many are failing. We all need to get back to the gospel truth instead of those feel good sermons that bring in so many donations.
MB

 

Wow !!! You Got More Than a Wake Up Call......

.... I have never stopped using the "invitation". In fact, I didn't know, that in the circle of Baptist Churches that the invitation had been laid aside for some other way to bring people into a personal relationship with Jesus.

You really opened my eyes. Thanks!!!

Sign me: Invitation and altar call 'sign' is always "on!"

Pastor Paul :type:

 

Paul,

I find this very troubling, though I doubt you meant it the way I took it.

The "invitation" does not bring people into a personal relationship with Jesus.

Surely, the invitation is a vehicle for inviting those with questions to come up and receive answers, counseling, etc. But, an invitation is only a vehicle, it is not a destination.

Personally, I think the word "invitation" is way too weak. Often, but not always, after I've shared the Gospel in every message I preach, I give an exhortation to repent and believe. I'm afraid an "invitation" is too much of a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. On the other hand, an exhortation is a bit more forceful in telling people "you need this Jesus, He is your only hope."

Like I said, though, I probably took this in a way you didn't intend.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

That is why a lot of preachers like me are full time in a secular occupation, because many of the churches will not allow the Word to be preached, nor consistently lived out.

 

You are onto something here. I like the term "exhortation." Paul was certainly forceful in Acts 17 when he said God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Peter's Pentecost day sermon pricked the hearts of his listeners. In fact, they interrupted him, asking "what shall we do?" His answer was direct: "Repent." And then in Acts 2:40, this: "And with many other words he did testify and exhort, saying 'save yourselves from this untoward generation.'"

And thinking back to Luke 13:3, the Lord Jesus himself did not invite softly and tenderly. To paraphrase him, "Repent or die."

While we're at it, maybe we ought to rethink such phrases as "invite Jesus into your heart," and "accept Jesus as your Savior." You'll not find them in the Bible.

 

They may not be there in those exact words but the concepts are there. However, the preacher must make sure he clarifies those terms with all the information. There is the need for repentance (repent ye therefore.....), for seeking forgiveness for one's sin (First John), for surrender (give all your possessions to the poor, take up your cross and follow me....).

 

You Did, But, That's OKAY!!!

It's simply semantics, brother. When I say 'invitation' it means anyone who is looking for assistance, is welcome to come forward. It is ALWAYS my hope and prayer, that through the praise, worship, prayers and message, that God touched a heart, or two,or, more, causing His people to come forward to repent, or, as we read in 1 John 1:5-10, repent and come clean so God is able to lead them without personal sin(s) blocking His "voice" in their life! :godisgood:

Pastor Paul :type:

 

The two main answers to the question, what must I do to be saved, are repent and believe. Paul mentions confess with your mouth. Nothing about inviting.

Don't get me wrong. God is not boxed in or limited by the language we use in presenting the gospel. If one asked God to save him, expresses sorrow for his sins, God will save him however the sinner puts it.

If, however, inviting Jesus into one's heart is so clear, how come the witness often must explain what it means with "say these words, " or "pray this prayer," or "repeat after me?"

 

Why split hairs when it comes to the gospel? No matter how you say it you have to explain it.

 

Sounds good to me. I hope it is never turned off until the Lord turns it off.
MB

 

I think there are several reasons for "false profession". Charles Finney was the grandaddy of alot of those beliefs.

One reason, is shallow theology in the SCB. People just don't know ALL the attributes of God. Seems like the Church leadership worrys too much about the "growth" of the size of the congregation. They want numbers. So they are "light" on convicting people of sin, so they will hang around so the church can have "attendance". They need to focus on the "depth" of their teaching. Let God worry about the growth. Those who are told of their sin, and RUN, and reject the gospel because they love sinning to much, are unregenerate. If they stay, and want to SEEK HIM, and SEEK HOLINESS...then you have a new Christian..Hallelujah!!! If more pastors preached about sinning against God and the consequenses of it, and what God expects from a true believer, it would purge out the unregenerate. The unregenerate simply dont want to hear that stuff. In many SBC churches, there is very little taught about sin. The MAGNITUDE of what sin against God is. One needs to understand the MAGNITUDE of their sin, in order to fully understand and appreciate the MAGNITUDE of Christ's atonement. If churches continue to teach that God loves us no matter who we are, that will keep the unregenerate coming back for the free coffee. God may love US, but not "who we are".. HE HATES SIN!That is why he does a sanctifying work in the believer to "change" "who they are" into Christlikeness." People seem to be coming away with the idea that Jesus' sacrafice is a ticket to sin. That is simply not true.

Another reason for so many false professions, is the "sinners prayer". Decisional regeneration is no different than Baptismal regeneration, just by a different means...BOTH are "something you do". I have seen 13 and 14 year old kids told they were saved because they repeated some silly prayer. I have seen 40 year olds say the same thing. One told me he was saved twice!! TWICE?!?! Or "Altar Calls". Where in the New Testament was an "ALTAR" used to save people? So many think, well...I prayed a prayer, or I went to the altar and "got saved". Where is the regeneration of the Holy Spirit in all of this!? Where is the Glory to GOD for His "drawing" your spritually DEAD soul to Christ? THAT IS AMAZING GRACE!!! Many American churches have softened the gospel to mean nothing. Many don't even know what Jesus saved them from. He saved us from our fallen state. He saved us from His wrath! Because He first loved us. They have turned Jesus into a get out of Hell free card or a flu shot. There is no teaching of what it means to be a follower of Christ.. to strive for obedience, holiness, and bearing good fruit. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit..He never said, you will know them if they said a prayer or went to the front of the isle one time.

Carnal christianity is a heresey. Of course Christrians still sin, But We HATE it, we don't continue to seek it. I have seen scores of "professing" Christians live like devils, MOST OF THE TIME. No seeking of Christ. No "wanting" to be sanctified, no good fruit to show..Nope...just well, I got saved..thats it. That is all they were taught! They said some prayer at a youth "lock-in" and was told they were saved.

I think one reason that the Regeneration of the Holy Spirit isn't taught in the forefront, is because it destroys the idea of "free will" salvation.Also, they believe that man isnt dead in sins..the apostle Paul said otherwise. People want to "share" in the glory that is supposed to go to God alone. Why is that? Yes God gave us a free will, but those still dead in sin (unregenerate), use that "free will" ONLY to sin. Any "good" they do is for the glory of themselves, which is sin. Man WILL NOT Choose God, UNLESS regenerated by the Holy Spirit. John 6:44 is clear about that. Their hearts have to be made NEW. "Born Again".

Why do so many SBC churches make salvation such a neat easy thing? There are only two reasons I can honestly think of. One is because they want to build numbers and not offend the lost at the expense of their souls (SELFISHNESS) The other is because they themselves don't even understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ(IGNORANCE).

I pray that the church will be restored and reformed, back to the apostolic teaching of scripture.

The SBC needs to stop worrying about "numbers" of conversions and focus on the "legitimacy" of conversions. So people will KNOW they are saved. They will see their fruits and give God the Glory for those fruits. If they focus on numbers and warm bodies flling the pews, there will be ALL kinds of unregenerate people running around in there, making church decisions, teaching...etc. They need to stop softening God and his word to be "inclusive", and Preach GOD! and Christ Crucified! And SIN and how BAD IT IS.. The unregenerate WILL RUN LIKE THE WIND!! The regenerate will stay, and want to dig deeper, and will PLEAD with God to PLOW their hearts to purge the sinfulness they contain.

We as Christians and Baptists, need to engage the SBC establishment, and throw a kink in some of these "glorified pizza parties" that youth ministers seem so fond of, and get back to the holiness, justness, mercy, and grace of God. Because I do know this....Salvation is of the Lord. Also, God isnt shallow, neither should His word be either.

 

My 10 and 11 year old g/children know what the "gospel" is, I just asked them.

 

I would agree with a lot of what you say, and you had me with you, until you threw this "reformed" perspective into it - which is far from a 'given' - and I decidedly disagree with. You have in no way proven your proposition that lack of Calvinism is a root cause of the problems you mention - much less a cure. You also appear to have a hatred (too strong?) of the Southern Baptists, of which, I are one. I reckon there is as much room for criticism of SBC as there is for any church/movement/association that you or any others on this board are with, perhaps more. However, I dare say, your obvious hatred/disgust will not get you very far persuading any to your way of thinking. Food for thought.

 

With all due respect, I haven't noticed these problems in Calvinistic SBC churches. Also, I don't have a hatred for Southern Baptists. I have a hatred for shallow theology. Furthermore, I don't care "how many" I persuade. If someone wants to wallow in shallow theology, then by all means. My hatred for the "diminishing" of God that is going on will continue. You either see the problem or you don't. I know "Calvinsm" aka Reformed theology didn't create it.