Gen 12:3

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the fact that the Jews are under God's judgement today. I'm not advocating mistreating anyone, just saying that Moses stated the nation would be destroyed and dispersed for continued disobedience to God including prophesying in detail of some events of AD 70. His words were fulfilled.

 

The question is what is Israel today?

 

I vote yes, although there are many other factors concerning whether God will bless a nation.

But I do believe God will bless those nations that bless Israel, and curse those who curse Israel.

I disagree with your view on Israel, I think modern Israel is a fulfillment of many prophesies where God said he would gather his people out of many nations and bring them back to their own land.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

This prophesy has not been completely fulfilled, because Israel does not yet live in peace. That will occur during the Millennium.

Edit- And though I could be wrong, I do think there is the possibility that the United States is shown in prophesy as helping Israel when many nations come against it in Revelations 12.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

When Satan sends a flood (great army) against Israel, it says Israel will be given two wings of "a great eagle" that will deliver them. I think there is a real possibility this could be the U.S., but I could be wrong.

 

A couple of quotes on this topic:

and again

and again

and again,

and again

finally,

Will National Israel occupy the physical Israel? No! The promise is not theirs but it is ours, the new Israel (Jeremiah 31:31; Hebrews 8). All the promises of Yes to those who are in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20; Romans 4:13). God has no obligation to national Israel for that covenant is obsolete. He has made his promises to the Church... there are not two covenants, but one.

 

I disagree Ruiz, Paul spoke of a future time when all of Israel (believeing remnant) will be saved.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

Please cite the verse. I suspect I know what verses you are alluding to, but I do not believe all of National Israel will be saved. I do believe that we, spiritual Israel, will become a nation, not to bring in the kingdom but when the kingdom is brought in. Yet, I believe it is evidently clear that the old covenant is obsolete as Hebrews 8 clearly states.

 

Is this question for me? I showed the verses in Romans chapter 11.

You are correct, not all of national Israel will be saved. That has always been the case, back in Elijah's time there were only 7,000 Jews who were truly faithful to God and did not bow the knee to Baal.

And Paul references this:

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

This is from:

1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

Elijah was discouraged and wanted to quit the ministry. He complained that he alone was faithful to God. But God told him there was a small remnant, seven thousand men who remained faithful to him.

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

So, Israel are those Jews who believe, not national Israel.

In Revelations it shows that 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe shall turn to Christ and trust him. This is that "all Israel" that Paul spoke of in Romans 11. He was never speaking of national Israel. However, these Jews will come out of national Israel, just as they did in Elijah's day.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These 144,000 Jews that will turn to Christ are the "all Israel" which Paul spoke of in Romans 11.

 

Winman,

Romans 11 is clear in the presentness of the time Paul has written when he says in Romans 11:5, the next verse you after your citation, "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace."

In other words, Paul was talking in the present in Romans 11. Secondly, God chose them by Grace.

Then in verse 11 Paul says, "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,"

Israel (national)failed to obtain it... but now the elect (Christians, those saved by Grace... there is not a division between elect Jews and all the elect) have obtained it! Verse 12 states the Gentiles "full inclusion" into God's plan. It is not a partial inclusion. We are fully included in all of God's plan. Dispensationalists say we are not fully included.

Finally, Paul is making a illusion to I Kings 9, he is not making it a prophetic statement. He is saying, like I Kings 9 where God saved a remnant, so to today. However, the rest of the chapter he expounds on how the Gentiles are fully included.

As for the 144,000 is an illusion to something. I personally believe this is an illusion to the past, not the present. I do not think you can make a solid argument in Revelation for the continuance of an entire theology based on the 144,000 passage.

I, though, believe I have full inclusion. There is no distinction between those saved of a Jewish background and me being saved. We are both the elect.

To try to use Romans 11 to show a future for Israel must take the e

 

Yes, Paul did speak of a remnant that believed at that time, but he also spoke of a future time when all of Israel would be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Paul has already spoken of a remnant of Jews who believed in Christ at the time. Then he goes on to speak of the gospel going to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Now, in verse 25 he explains that at the present time there has come a blindness upon the majority of the Jews, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. This will be all the Gentiles who believed from Paul's time up until the tribulation begins. During the tribulation 144,000 Jews will turn to Christ. When these 144,000 come in, then "all of Israel" will be saved, that is, all that are going to be saved will be saved at this time.

But those 144,000 will come out of national Israel. The tribulation deals with national Israel. Most will not be believers in Christ, they will continue in Judaism and practice sacrifices. But a small remnant, 144,000 will turn to Christ during the tribulation.

 

The problem with your interpretation of Romans 11:25 is that it takes a phrase and tries to apply a preconceived theology to that phrase, but the context does not support the context. Even if what I am about to say about the text is wrong, the text would be entirely vague that it could not and may not state what you are saying.

If we understand that the context of what is being said determines the nature of the how we interpret verse 25, I believe we can have a more clear understanding.

1. Paul clearly stated the full inclussion in verse 12, your interpretation seems to contradict verse 12.

2. Romans 10:12 Paul says there is no distinction between Greek and Jew.

3. If Paul is speaking of a future mass conversion of the nation of Israel, then he is destroying the entire development of his argument in chaps. 9-11.

Next line of thinking about God casting off Israel?

1. The logic Paul is addressing went like this "since Israel nationally rejected Christ, they should be rejected nationally."

2. Paul shows in verses with the "remnant" and the phrasing of the present tense, that there were some God has kept for himself.

The next line of thinking about the Mystery.

1. The mystery was threefold: the hardening of Israel, the coming fullness of the Gentiles, and the salvation of all of Israel.

2. Israel is said to be "partially" hardened, not temporarily hardened. The word partially is in relation to the number in Israel, not to time. The other places in Romans near to this verse indicates this is a quantitative expression.

3. The word until in the phrase, "until the fullness of the Gentiles.." This phrase in Greek is often used as the finalization of events, not referring to what happens after the event takes place. In other words, what is important is not what will take place after the event is completed, but that the event is eschatologically fulfilled (cf I Co 11:26 and I Co 15:25).

4. Likewise, the hardening of Israel that will occur "until" the fullness of the Gentiles comes refers to an eschatological termination. A hardening will occur throughout the whole of the present age until the return of Christ. Paul is not suggesting a time when the hardening will be reversed but a time when the hardening is eschatologically fulfilled

5. Most dispensationalists tend to interpret the end of this verse saying "then all Israel will be saved." However, this is not the interpretation needed. However, the word "then" is used here as temporal and this is not the normal reading of this word and is rejected in most other places by scholars. The other way of interpreting is, "in consequence of this process, all Israel will be saved."

Henderickson writes:

Finally, since Paul goes out of his way to show that Israel has no special plans for the future, I think this is the best interpretation. I do not find making "until" to mean what it does not makes this better.

 

All I can say is that there are numerous passages that show Israel will be gathered from all the nations as they have been today, that the Lord will dwell with them, and they shall be saved.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

What happened in 1948? The Jews were brought from all nations of the world back to their homeland. Notice in verse 11 it speaks of this being the second regathering, so this is not the Jews being brought back from Babylon.

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.
44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.

These are but a few passages that God will bring back the Jews to Israel and make an everlasting covenant with them. There are many more besides these. Note that the promise is not just to save them, but to bring them back to their land.

If this does not convince you, I do not know what will. You see the Jews back on their land today, just as the Lord said.

 

I don't believe Revelations 18 fits Israel at all except for the very last verse.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This is the only verse that could apply to Israel. Israel is not nearly the wealthiest country at all, ranking about 49th on one list of wealthiest nations I looked at.

But it is true that Israel has the blood of prophets in it, and the blood of saints. However it does not have the blood of all that were slain upon the earth.

Again, it is clearly shown that 144,000 Jews will be saved in Revelations, 12,000 from each tribe.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Jesus told Peter that the apostles would judge the twelve tribes of Israel in the regeneration.

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In Acts, Paul speaks of this as being future.

Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Now, if anybody knew what would become of the Jews, it is Paul. And here he is speaking of a future hope for Israel.

Paul didn't say God was finished with Israel here, he said just the opposite. He spoke of the promise made unto "our fathers" and the promise made to the "twelve tribes" and said they "hope to come".

 

Questions???
Is the church (the called out ones) these-Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace? After all it is by grace we are saved.

Who do you think is Paul's scriptural concept of these- the fullness of the Gentiles?

According to scripture who are the fullness of the Gentiles or do we know?

 

You don't need to feel sorry for me, I am fine. :tongue3:

Yes, I take the scriptures very literally. That doesn't mean I don't recognize symbolism. But I believe in most instances, when the scriptures CAN be taken literally, they should be.

Can a city be rich? YES. In fact, I used to wonder if Revelations 18 was not speaking of New York City. It certainly fits the description shown except for the last verse. However, the blood of prophets does not necessarily mean those prophets in the OT like Isaiah or Ezekiel. All Christians are prophets in the sense that all Christians are "forth tellers" who tell people of the scriptures and the gospel.

But even here I do not think New York City fits the description. The United States is a country that has promoted the gospel, not killed prophets and saints.

Rome on the other hand has been responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Christians through the centuries.

Lately, I have come to believe that Dubai in the United Arab Republic could be the Babylon shown to be overthrown in Revelations 18. This is a city that has come out of nowhere in just the last 20 years. It has the tallest buildings in the world, nearly 3 times the height of the Empire State Building. When I see these skyscrapers in Dubai I am immediately reminded of the Tower of Babel, where men tried to build a tower to heaven.



The fantastic thing about this photo is that they are already building another building even taller than this one. And Dubai is part of the old Babylonian empire.

And look at recent history. Who is the greatest enemy of Christianity today? The Muslims. Now, at this present moment the UAR has good relations with the west, but that could easily change tomorrow. If there was war to break out between Iraq and Israel which is a possibility, whose side do you think the UAR would take? I wouldn't bet on them taking our side.

It mentions pearls in Revelation 18 and puts an exclamation mark after the word pearls.

Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Dubai fits Revelations 18 very well in that it is a seaport, so the merchants of the sea can see it afar off, but it was also the world's center for pearls in the past.

Now, I could be all wrong on this, but so far this city fits with what I read in Revelations 18 very well.

But the city just represents a system. It is humanism really. It is the belief that man can become god, thus the tall buildings that reach to heaven. It is actually the whole world that is in this system, the city simply represents it.

And as far as a land flowing with milk and honey, everybody understands that as a land with much natural resources.