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ESV Vs. God's Word

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Rippon, Aug 27, 2010.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Okay, that header was a bit tricky. I'm not a KJO. I really don't like the name of the translation that I will just call GW.

    The translation team calls their translation theory "closest natural equivalent." However, I think it's just a functionally-equivalent version.
    I prefer the NLTse rather than the GWT overall in terms of the actual goals of each.

    I had a thread awhile back which detailed the fact that the ISV translation liberally borrowed many renderings from the GWT without acknowledgement.

    I will do my snippet rountine, occasionally quoting entire verses.

    ESV = English Standard Version
    GW = God's Word Translation

    Job

    Chapter 1

    v.12
    ESV : Behold,all that he has is in your hand.Only against him do not stretch out your hand.
    GW : Everything he has is in your power,but you must not lay a hand on him!

    v.17
    ESV : While he was yet speaking
    GW : While he was still speaking

    Chapter 2

    v.3
    ESV : He still holds fast his integrity
    GW : He is a man of integrity

    v.7
    ESV : loathsome sores
    GW : painful boils

    v.10
    ESV : shall we not receive evil?
    GW : Shouldn't we also accept the bad?

    Chapter 3

    v.3
    ESV : A man is conceived.
    GW : A boy has been conceived!

    v.13
    ESV : I would have lain down and been quiet
    GW : I would now be quietly laying down.

    v.25
    ESV : what I dread befalls me
    GW : What I dread happens to me.

    Chapter 4

    v.12
    ESV : Now a word was brought to me stealthily;my ear received the whisper of it.
    GW : I was told something secretly and heard something whispered in my ear.

    v.15
    ESV : A spirit glided past my face;the hair of my flesh stood up.
    GW : A spirit passed in front of me.It made my hair stand on end.

    v.17
    ESV : Can mortal man be in the right before God?
    GW : Can any mortal be righteous before God?

    v.20
    ESV : without anyone regarding it
    GW : without anyone paying attention

    v.21
    ESV : Is not their tent-cord plucked up within them
    GW : Haven't the ropes of their tent been loosened?
     
    #1 Rippon, Aug 27, 2010
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Continuing In Job

    Chapter 5

    v.9
    ESV : who does great things and unsearchable
    GW : He does great things that we cannot understand

    v.12
    ESV : He frustrates the devices of the crafty
    GW : He keeps shrewd people from carrying out their plans

    v.15
    ESV : from the sword of their mouth
    GW : from their slander

    Chapter 6

    v.26
    ESV : Do you think that you can reprove words, when the speech of a despairing man is wind?
    GW : Do you think my words need correction? Do you think they're what a desperate person says to the wind?

    Chapter 7

    v.2
    ESV : Like a slave who longs for the shadow
    GW : Like a slave, he longs for shade.

    v.3
    ESV : so I am allotted months of emptiness
    GW : Likewise, I have been given months that are of no use

    v.20
    ESV : Why have you made me your mark?
    GW : Why do you make me your target?

    v.21
    ESV : For now I shall lie in the earth
    GW : Soon I'll lie down in the dust.

    Chapter 8

    v.4
    ESV : he has delivered them into the hand of their transgression
    GW : he allowed them to suffer the consequencesd of their sinfulness

    v.20
    ESV : nor take the hand of evildoers
    GW : or give a helping hand to wicked people
     
    #2 Rippon, Aug 27, 2010
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Continuing In The Book Of Job

    Chapter 9

    v.2
    ESV : But how can a man be in the right before God?
    GW : But how can a mortal be declared righteous to God?

    v.4
    ESV : who has hardened himself against him, and succeeded?
    GW : who could oppose him and win?

    v.20
    ESV : Though I am in the right
    GW : If I am righteous

    v.20 b.
    ESV : he would prove me perverse
    GW : It would declare that I am corrupt

    v.31
    ESV : my own clothes will abhor me
    GW : my own clothes would find me disgusting

    v.33
    ESV : There is no arbiter between us
    GW : There is no mediator between us

    Chapter 10

    v.7
    ESV : there is none to deliver
    GW : there is no one to rescue me

    Chapter 11

    v.2
    ESV : Should a multitude of words go unanswered
    GW : Shouldn't someone answer this flood of words?

    v.19
    ESV : many will court your favor
    GW : many people will try to gain your favor

    Chapter 12

    v.22
    ESV : He uncovers the deeps out of darkness
    GW : He uncovers mysteries hidden in the darkness
     
    #3 Rippon, Aug 28, 2010
  4. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    I would find it helpful if you'd post the Hebrew or Greek along with your version comparisons to see how the renderings of the various constructs (I admit, I'm a bit lazy to go back and look up all of them individually) :thumbs:
     
    #4 TomVols, Aug 28, 2010
  5. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Of course they're different, the two versions have different translation philosophies; different purposes.

    Rob
     
    #5 Deacon, Aug 28, 2010
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I'll leave that up to you and anyone else who so desires. That's not what I do. I am interested in showing the difference in phraselogy. The ESV is weak in English. It doesn't use standard English most of the time -- especially in the Old Testament.
     
    #6 Rippon, Aug 29, 2010
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    In the snippets of the two translational philosophical methods you provided -- GWT lives up to its goals -- the ESV doesn't.
     
    #7 Rippon, Aug 29, 2010
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I will continue to contrast the ESV and GWT in two days. I'm taking a break.
     
    #8 Rippon, Aug 29, 2010
  9. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    I understand your point. That said, ultimately, the test of a translation is does it accurately convey the intention of the author as penned in the original language. You cannot be accurate if you aren't faithful to the original, nor can you be accurate if you aren't understandable.

    Deacon, you make a good point. Comparing the two translations is a bit like apples and sandpaper. However, Rippon is right in that the ESV can at times have some befuddling word choices due to its unnecessary allegiance (IMHO) to it's daddy, the RSV. That said, 1 Peter 3 is clearer in the ESV than the NASB and HCSB after looking at it this weekend. So it depends on the pericope.
     
    #9 TomVols, Aug 30, 2010
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Continuing In Job -- Have Patience :)

    Chapter 13

    v.9
    ESV : when he searches you out
    GW : when he cross-examines you

    v.14
    ESV : Why should I take my flesh in my teeth
    GW : I am biting off more than I can chew

    Chapter 14

    v.2
    ESV : continues not
    GW : he doesn't stay long

    v.3
    ESV : And do you open your eyes on such a one and bring me into judgment with you?
    GW : You observe this and call me to account to you.

    v.11
    ESV : As waters fail
    GW : As water drains out of a lake

    v.14
    ESV : I would wait till my renewal should come
    GW : I will wait for my relief to come

    v.20
    ESV : you change his countenance
    GW : You change his appearance

    v.21
    ESV : he perceives it not
    GW : he doesn't realize it

    Chapter 15

    v.2
    ESV : Should a wise man answer with windy knowledge
    G : Should a wise person answer with endless details

    v.4
    ESV : hindering meditation with God
    GW : diminish devotion with God

    v.23
    ESV : He knows that a day of darkness is ready at his hand
    GW : He knows that his ruin is close at hand.

    v.31
    ESV : Let him trust in emptiness
    GW : He shouldn't trust in worthless things

    Chapter 16

    v.3
    ESV : Shall windy words have an end?
    GW : Will your long-winded speeches never end?

    v.4
    ESV : I could join words together against you
    GW : I could string words together against you

    v.6
    ESV : my pain is not assuaged
    GW : my pain is not eased

    v.14
    ESV : He breaks me with breach upon breach
    GW : he inflicts wound after wound on me.

    v.16
    ESV : on my eyelids is deep darkness
    GW : dark shadows encircle my eyes
     
    #10 Rippon, Aug 31, 2010
  11. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    awzal doesn't really mean "drain." and "lake?" Yam never means that to the best of my knowledge. Here's the problem with the free translations - they substitute easily acceptible words with words that make you just scratch your heads.

    Cf. NASB: "As water evaporates from the sea...."
    Much clearer overall and more and descriptive of awzal. Beats the ESV. And beats the GWV by being more accurate and less obfuscating.
     
    #11 TomVols, Aug 31, 2010
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    According to the NET Bible The Hebrew word "yam" can mean either sea or lake.

    What we call the sea of Galilee is actually a lake.
     
    #12 Rippon, Aug 31, 2010
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Job 17

    v.2
    ESV : my eye dwells on their provocation
    GW : My eyes are focused on their opposition.

    v.7
    ESV : My eye has grown dim from vexation
    GW : Now my eyes are blurred from grief.

    v.10
    ESV : But you,come on again,all of you
    GW : But now, all of you,come and try again!

    Chapter 18

    v.2
    ESV : How long will you hunt for words?
    GW : How long before your words will end?

    v.12
    ESV : His strength is famished
    GW : Hunger undermines his strength.

    v.14
    ESV : He is torn from the tent in which he trusted
    GW : He is dragged from the safety of his tent

    v.15
    ESV : In his tent dwells that which is none of his
    GW : Fire lives in his tent.

    v.17
    ESV : he has no name in the street
    GW : his reputation will not be known on the street corner
     
    #13 Rippon, Aug 31, 2010
  14. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    Let me check NIDOTTE and get back to you. TWOT says otherwise, but maybe there are new lexical developments.
     
    #14 TomVols, Aug 31, 2010
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    In Job

    Job 19

    v.8
    ESV : He has walled up my way
    GW : God has blocked my path

    v.17
    ESV : My breath is strange to my wife
    GW : My breath offends my wife
    (ESV :LOL!)

    v.25
    ESV : For I know that my Redeemer lives
    GW : But I know that my defender lives

    Chapter 20

    v.13
    ESV : though he is loath to let it go
    GW : won't let go of it

    v.14
    ESV : yet his food is turned in his stomach
    GW : the food in his belly turns sour

    Chapter 21

    v.19
    ESV : God stores up their iniquity for their children
    GW : God saves a person's punishment for his children

    v.34
    ESV : How long will you comfort me with empty nothings?
    GW : How long can you comfort me with this nonsense

    Chapter 22

    v.2
    ESV : Can a man be profitable to God?
    GW : Can a human be any use to God

    v.3
    ESV : if you are in the right
    GW : when you are righteous

    v.6
    ESV : For you have exacted pledges of your brothers for nothing
    GW : For no reason you take your brothers' goods as security for a loan

    v.15
    ESV : Will you keep the old way that wicked men have trod?
    GW : Are you following the old path that wicked peoplehave taken?

    v.21
    ESV : thereby good will come to you
    GW : In this way you will have prosperity
     
    #15 Rippon, Aug 31, 2010
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Still In Job

    Chapter 23

    v.3
    ESV : that I might come even to his seat
    GW : I would go where he lives

    v.8
    ESV : Behold, I go forward,but he is not there,and backward,but I do not perceive him
    GW : However, if I go east,he isn't there.If I go west,I can't find him.

    v.9
    ESV : on the left hand when he is working,I do not behold him;he turns to the right hand,but I do not see him.
    GW : If I go northward,where he is at work,I can't observe him. If I turn southward,I can't see him.

    v.11
    ESV : My foot has held fast to his steps
    GW : I have followed his footsteps closely.

    v.13
    ESV : But he is unchangeable
    GW : But God is one of a kind
     
    #16 Rippon, Sep 1, 2010
  17. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    v.13, ESV is more dynamic, isn't it, vis-a-vis, unchangable (Unique, one, etc.) and GWV more literal.
     
    #17 TomVols, Sep 2, 2010
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    It appears so. The NASBU agrees more with the GW rendering. The Message has :"He is singular and sovereign."
     
    #18 Rippon, Sep 2, 2010
  19. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Rsv vs esv

    The ESV is an update of the old translation RSV. They are still very much alike and many the language style is a mix of the so called "formal" styled used in the RSV days. Example: Read letters from our founding father's and they were usually very formal. Today we text each other and don't even spell correctly or use punctuation.

    Times change and the ESV is probably closer than you think, but you have to understand that it is a mix of old and new. I read it as a comparison with my KJV and NASB when doing studies. I read the NIV or NLT for what I would call "light Bible reading to make me feel better".

    We must also remember that new translations change in language depending on the date we translate it because kids do NOT use the same language our grandfathers did. English is alive and changing and the new dictionaries prove it by adding words we would never have thought would be added.

    It may be someday where a translator says, Philip saw a dude going down the track or something similar rather than Philip saw a man going down the road. I know, bad example, but this is one reason that Modern versions sell and let's face it the publishers are in the profit business and it is a supply and demand economy. Many, I'm sure feel they are being guided by God but if I followed everybody who said God told them to do something I would be doing everything from murder to the right thing, so like the Bible says we have to discern what we understand or think comes from God.

    First, what we feel God tells us cannot disagree with his written Word. From there it becomes more difficult. So, there are many variables going on here on the translations, but that is why the ESV is different. It is the mix of the RSV and corrections from Modern Translators.

    Compare the two, you will be amazed. You can download esword and get both I think for free.
     
    #19 Phillip, Sep 3, 2010
  20. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    IMHO, I think the ESV is too much like the RSV. I want to love the ESV, but I just can't give it my whole heart. I love it, but I'm not yet "in love" with it :thumbs:
     
    #20 TomVols, Sep 3, 2010
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