God and Time, closing words of William Lane Craig

Nobody's arguing things we don't understand, we are debating things we do. Nobody claimed to understand an infinite God.

 

And in case it seems that my illustration is an attempt to explain God or something I don't understand, please understand that it is not. Instead, I am merely examining the logically possible to try and filter out unsound conclusions about the logically impossible.

 

Location can have meaning outside of space

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

Also, if "outside of time and space is not a location", then you cannot state God exists there. I think your analogy is more on man's understanding of this mechanic than the actual mechanic.

 

Equivocation. The "locations" in the verse are all meant metaphorically. You seemed to be using it non-metaphorical sense. "Location" in the sense you are seem to be using it does not have meaning outside of space. So sure, God is "located" (metaphorically speaking) outside of space, but He isn't located (literally) there. Its just another illustration of the limitations of our language. Even the phrase "outside of space" is ultimately a logical absurdity.

And when I raised my point about "located" it was not to negate your position (otherwise my whole position would have to be negated for the same exact sort of 'bad' language), but to make sure this fact was clarified. So, we can talk about God being 'located' outside of time and space as long as we are clear in our minds and logic that He really isn't 'located' there at all - location having no real meaning apart from space (metaphorical meaning notwithstanding). Since your statements seemed to revolve around God being in a place, I thought it a necessary clarification.

Strictly speaking, God isn't located anywhere. His omnipresence does not mean He is located at all places, but that there is no place where He is not. Now, if God were space bound, then such a distinction would simply be semantics. But if God is not space bound, then its an important distinction (in as far as it is even accurate or meaningful). It goes back to the AMness of God.

 

Thats all it was meant to be. It merely illustrates the fact that God being at one place in time and space does not logically necessitate Him actually being located there, much less pinpointed there. I in no way claim this illustrates how it actually is - it merely examines the logical possibilities in order to illustrate that your position is not a logically necessary one. You say "If X then Y." My illustration points that that X does not necessitate Y.

 

Craig is describing the A-theory of time for which he supports. Basically time being linear it moves from moment to moment, the past has happened and the future does not exist or has yet to occur. I have listened to Craig for years I like his reasoning though it does not solve all the questions regarding how God knows the future (looking down the corridors of time and calculating man's responses and future events) but then again it seems to be the best explanation given what can be emperically known from mans perspective of the universe and given the bible leaves us guessing as well.

Sorry I don't have "time" to catch up on the whole thread.

Darren

 

Yes you are. You are debating about whether or not God is outside of time or inhabits time, and what that all means. What is eternity? Can you explain that? Can you explain what it means to be outside of time? Can you explain how things were before the beginning of the creation? These are things we cannot understand. Debating them is pointless.

 

Then don't debate them...but we do know God is not bound to the very thing He created.

 

You still haven't answered the question I asked: what is eternity? What is it like without time? What was it like before the creation?

 

I don't know, and never claimed to know. I said we are debating the things we do know.

 

Exactly... God necessarily exists apart from Creation. He must. If He is bound by Creation, then He could not be the Creator. However, that does not stop God from interacting with His Creation. He can and He does.

 

I want to note that determinism would have little or no meaning from a point of view that is non-time bound. So, it is logically possible that what we see inside of time see as leading logically to determinism is purely a function of being time bound. So, it is possible that the world is fully deterministic yet not at all...depending on if viewed from inside of time or outside of it.

In short, the impulse to have God as temporal after creation (besides making no sense as it requires that God be temporal in some way before creation as well) in order to avoid determinism may be unnecessary.

 

If God decrees to be bound by His creation, as was the case in the life of Christ, it doesn't prove He exists apart from His creation.

 

There have been a lot of ho hum theories of time in the science world some of which are quite interesting such as the theory of timelessness or simultaneous time. Granted the thorough impossibility to actually reproduce or test any such theories other than it seems to work within an equation but than again, so does infinity!! Now if anyone manages to actually travel faster than the speed of light they may like to let us know whether they succeded in proving timelessness (would they age in such a state??).

I don't know how God knows the future but I don't need to, in order to feel safe that He has the universe in His hands, give me God and I'll be happy not knowing the mysteries of the universe or the mysteries of God's absolute eternal being.

Darren

 

It is interesting that the atheist naturalist position is the one of true determinism. A universe without a higher power to direct the movement must, by default, be one where each thing has a prior cause, and if we could be just find a way to measure and calculate all those causes,we could indeed determine all things. Yet, according to the Bible, God exercises His free will, and as creatures in His image, so do we, yet God knows all things and His sovereign desires will come about. Not deterministic, but sovereign.

 

This is good and I love william lane craig, but it misses something. God made everything primarily for his own glory and only secondarily for our great happiness. This explanation alone accounts for the immense suffering we see in the world around us and, indeed, in eternal hell.