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No Cross? No problem!

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    If men are not born sinners, as some declare, then they do not need the blood of Christ which is shed for... well... sinners.

    Assuming that all babies and small children and all invalids who die go to heaven, which I do, then the VAST VAST majority of the population of heaven is occupied by them. Perhaps as much as 90-99 percent.

    This is based on the idea that more children die each year than adults and all of them go to heaven whereas MOST adults, apparently do not.

    Now these people go to heaven not because of the CROSS. No, no. The cross is for SINNERS. They go to heaven because they are not guilty. They LITERALLY BY-PASS the CROSS.

    Take the high number for anecdotal purposes. This means that it is perfectly possible that 99% of the human population of Heaven knows
    NOTHING of redemption, NOTHING of the blood of Christ- 99% cannot sing the song of the Redeemed!

    Such are the blasphemous conclusions of any doctrine that denies that men are born sinners, guilty before God, in need of a Savior!!!
     
    #1 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  2. Twizzler

    Twizzler Member

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    Wait... wut? It's blasphemy to believe in an age of accountability? I'm a little confused. What exactly is your point here? Am I missing something from another thread or something?
     
    #2 Twizzler, Jan 31, 2011
  3. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    I think some believe we aren't born sinners. We obviously are born sinners though. I don't see how you could think otherwise.
     
    #3 mets65, Jan 31, 2011
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I believe in an age of accountability.

    But I believe that men are born sinners and that babies and invalids need the blood of Christ to get into heaven because they are sinners like the rest of the human race.

    God simply applies the blood of Christ to those individuals.

    Do you have a problem with the idea that Heaven is MOSTLY populated without the cross?
     
    #4 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  5. Twizzler

    Twizzler Member

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    I have no problem at all with God's grace. In fact, I thank the Lord for it every single day! I'm a simple layman and don't believe it's beneficial to me to take part in this legalistic debate. I just wasn't sure where you were trying to go with your points. I see now there's another long thread that pretty much mirrors this one.
     
    #5 Twizzler, Jan 31, 2011
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes, that's what I argue for.

    Grace.


    But grace is not needed by these babies who are not sinners. Grace is for sinners. They say babies are not sinners.

    So the VAST majority of Heaven's population got there without grace!

    Madness!
     
    #6 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  7. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    We have to have the cross. We can't get there without, neither can small children.
     
    #7 mets65, Jan 31, 2011
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Enter the Hallelujah chorus!!!

    Praise God for the CROSS!

    All men are sinners in need of a Savior- from 108 years old to 108 seconds old- the cross is the ONLY WAY!
     
    #8 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  9. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    How could a child get to heaven without the blood of Jesus. How could one even argue that?
     
    #9 mets65, Jan 31, 2011
  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    What do the scriptures say, All we like sheep have GONE ASTRAY.
    Now you tell me, how can a sheep that never belonged to a flock go astray?
    Look at 1 Peter 2:25
    1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    Now, if you are born a sinner separated from God, then how can it be said that we have RETURNED to him? You can't return to someplace you have never been can you?
    Did the prodigal son begin lost? No, he was with his father at home, then left and went astray in sin. Then he repented and RETURNED to his father.

    As for babies, they MUST be under the curse if they died, and Jesus took away this curse. So he certainly did die for them.
     
    #10 Winman, Jan 31, 2011
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    How are they under the curse if they are not sinners.

    Did Christ not die for sin??

    Is the curse not a result of sin?

    Isn't it true that babies are not sinners? Then why the curse?

    Do babies need to be redeemed?

    Do babies need to be regenerated?
     
    #11 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  12. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    Gen 8:21

    We are born sinners.
     
    #12 mets65, Jan 31, 2011
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Exactly

    21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
     
    #13 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  14. luke1616

    luke1616 New Member

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    You have to be kidding. There are people here that think we are not born into sin?
     
    #14 luke1616, Jan 31, 2011
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You cannot distinguish between the flesh, body, and spirit. God cursed the ground, and we are made of the dust of the ground. When Adam and Eve sinned, their bodies were corrupted (as well as all creation) and they began to die. The body then decomposes and returns to the dust. This is the curse, there is not one word about God cursing their moral natures here or anywhere else in scripture.
    We do inherit our physical bodies from our parents, and we inherit this curse as well. Therefore all men will die physically. Jesus died to take away this curse.
    But the soul and spirit come from God (not our parents) and are eternal in nature. The rich man in hell had a spiritual body and spirit and was in torments. The soul and spirit never cease to exist as the physical body does.
    Death for the soul and spirit means to be separated from God forever, but the soul and spirit can still function. The rich man in hell could see, hear, talk, think, feel pain, had emotions, and could even repent although it was too late to help him. He could talk to the living and spoke with Abraham.
    Where Augustine and Calvin went wrong is they could not distinguish between the body (the flesh), the soul, and spirit. In fact, Calvin said man was only soul and body. He did not even see that man has an eternal spirit.
    I believe the scriptures show we are born with a corrupt body from our parents, but a pure soul and spirit from God. When a person gives in to the lusts of the flesh and sins, then the death penalty passes on the soul and spirit.
     
    #15 Winman, Jan 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2011
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I already knew you believed all of this stuff, Winman. It is certainly not that me, and Calvin and the greatest theological mind the world has ever known- Augustine, could not distinguish between body, soul and spirit.

    But it is nice to see that you are consistently arrogant in thinking that you CAN distinguish what hundreds, yea thousands of BRILLIANT theologians on both sides of the theological spectrum could not.

    Consistently arrogant in every post and too blind to even KNOW your arrogance.


    Now to the matter:

    Souls go to be with God immediately after death.

    Now these souls of these babies which are completely untouched by sin in your horrifically false view- where are they now- the billions who have already died- where are their souls right now?

    In Heaven occupying the VAST majority of the population there.

    Now how did those SOULS get there?

    Not by the blood of Christ, Winman- NO NO. Not according to your weird new view.

    Christ's blood was shed for SIN. These babies souls have no sin according to your view.

    They got there WITHOUT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!!
     
    #16 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yea, it's what Winman, Webdog and Willis believe.

    It is absolutely horrific.
     
    #17 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  18. luke1616

    luke1616 New Member

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    How does that even make sense? They don't read plain or what?
     
    #18 luke1616, Jan 31, 2011
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I think they are so determined to undermine the doctrines of grace that they are willing to sink to low, low levels to do so- if it means twisting the Scripture or denying 2,000 years of church history- so be it.

    Sometimes when you pit yourself so firmly against something it blinds you.

    That is the only explanation I can come up with as to why they would deny many things in the Scriptures they deny.
     
    #19 Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011
  20. luke1616

    luke1616 New Member

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    I am truly sitting here beside myself on this one. "For the effectual saving of the soul"? I'm getting my bible out now, I've missed something.
     
    #20 luke1616, Jan 31, 2011
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