Ecclesiology

The difficulty, and one which we must remember when preparing matters for use in a church service, is our laity aren't theological.

They aren't trained theologians who understand the nuance between the Roman Catholic Church and the universal church.

If you're going to spend 9 weeks on anything remember your people will come to the conversation with built in beliefs on things you'll say. For what its worth the BB is a good indicator of the reception you'll get. I'm all for advancing the conversation but we need to be mindful of where our people are coming from even if they don't fully understand why they believe those things.

 

Actually, the keys of salvation rest in the hands of Jesus Christ, as he took them with Him back to heaven at the Ascension..

Agree with you that a Christian SHOULD attend a local Church, being a baptised/active member, but THAT of itself will not make sure of your salvation...

one CAN know they are really saved, by the inward confirmation by Holy Spirit, and trusting in what the Bible says about those who have faith in jesus Christ...

So church is important/vital, not essential though...

MANY will be faithful Church members/attenders, yet jesus will say to them" depart from me I NEVER knew you!"

 

You biggest problem here is the definition of ekklesia, wrongly translated "church." If you read Darby's translation he consistently translates the word as "assembly" for that is what the word means. It is impossible to have an "unassembled assembly" which is basically what a universal church, so-called, is. Thus the ekklesia is always local, an assembly, in the Scriptures. It has no other definition--not in Koine Greek, not even in Classical Greek, was it ever used in a universal sense. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. The only time when all believers will assemble together will be in heaven. Today we have churches, not a Church.

 

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To be sure, as I already pointed out above, universal church is an ancient error. It is found in the so-called Apostle's Creed. "...I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,..." Note: the word Catholic was added after the original which was supposedly written on the Day of Pentecost. See Catholic Encyclopedia.

This boils to: the ever changing holy see with ever changing dogma and her daughters with reformed, ever changing doctrines--reforming the reformed dogma of their mother. Of course some of this appears to have a scriptural facade; but it is still without biblical sanction. In the end, the traditions of men have determined the doctrine. This is certainly a shaky foundation at best--built on wood, hay and stubble. It will not hold up in the fire that will try all men's works. See I Cor. 3:10-23. See also: Mt.7:22,23; ...depart from me, I never knew You."

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Peace,

Bro. James

 

And I don't disagree with you at all. You wanted some input and I think we've provided that for you. I'm all for teaching and raising the bar.

Now there are some pretty good answers and interaction from others here. I hope you take heed of their insight. If you're not interested in their takes on the matter just let us know, but there are some good insights in the replies to your OP.

 

Again, we have a tendency to refer to the Church generically. It's the same way we talk about other entities in an institutional sense. Like, for instance,the family, or, the press.

But we all know there is no such thing as the family. There are only specific families. I've used this before, but it's still applicable. We can talk about the breakdown of the family (in an institutional sense), but in reality, only individual families break down.

So,when we talk about building up"The Church" in a generic sense, we understand that we can only build up individual churches.

I love football and baseball. But the fact is I love specific football and baseball teams.

I don't just watch football; I watch a game with two teams competing. Real teams, not generic teams. Not Universal Teams. And definitely not Invisible Teams.

This Sunday morning, one thing I will not have to ask is "wonder where the Universal, Invisible Church" is meeting today. Wish I knew, so I could go."

No, I'll be heading out to to my local congregation. From this church, the Lord has called more than two dozen preachers, several missionaries, and a number of lay people who engage in mission opportunities at home and abroad.

One of our deacons has spent a week on mission this past week. Another deacon and the head of our children's ministries are heading out in July.

My point? They were called out from and sent out by a local church. Not "The Church."

In the same way, the congregation at Antioch sent out Paul and Silas, Paul and Barnabas; the congregation at Jerusalem sent out Stephen and Philip, among others. They went the blessing and authority of those churches, and reported back to those churches.

I guess they would have reported back to the universal invisible church if they could have found it. Had it existed.

Sorry, ignore the sarcasm.

 

What do you do with this verse?

Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

 

"Would not some of the so-called “priests” lock us out of the fold if they had the keys? Thank God they have neither the key nor the charge of the door, for whoever believes in Jesus, to whatever church he belongs outwardly, or if he belongs to no visible church at all, if he does but come to God by Christ, he is saved, for Christ is the door—and nothing else is the way of entrance—neither this opinion, nor that external doing, nor such-and-such works, nor such-and-such feelings, but Christ Himself, and Christ alone." —Charles Spurgeon

 

The family of God is a far more accurate term for all believers than the universal church. There is no universal church/unassembled assembly--both of which make no sense.
But a family of God, a family in which you are born into when you were born of God, and made a child of God, in which all who are "in Christ," are your brothers and sisters in Christ, is indeed your family. My family lives all over Canada and the U.S. They don't live all under one roof. They don't always meet together. They are rarely assembled. But they are a family. We are related to one another, just as each and every believer is related to each other. We all belong to the family of God.
But there is no such thing as a universal church; only local churches; local assemblies, gatherings, congregations--that which the word means.

 

Admitedly the terms "universal" and/or "invisible" are not applied in scripture to the church but what exactly then was Jesus promising to build?

Matthew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.​

An entity real enough for the gates of hell not to be able to prevail against it (not them).​

HankD​

 

Let's put some context in by looking at 3:14:

This particular family is related to the Lord Jesus. This family carries a name--Christian. So family refers to all who claim the name of Jesus.

Another word for family is "kingdom." All believers are subjects of the King.

Paul is not talking about a church in this passage, or The Church.

Those who describe The Church as composed of all believers are actually talking about the The Kingdom.

I know, we do sometimes talk about our "church family," and that's okay. But it simply means that our church friends are so close, they're like family. But, without exception, when we use that term we are talking about the people in our congregation, not every Christian.

 

Christ came and died on the Cross for sinners, not the Church...
the Church is JUST the total Body of Christ saved since the Cross event...
Church not roman/baptist/methodist etc
Total number of the saved Invisible Church spread out through different churches!