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Ye must be born again !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jun 24, 2011.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    John 3:7

    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    When Jesus told Nicodemus that except a man be born again he cannot see [perceive] the Kingdom of God as per vs 3

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    In essence, what Jesus meant, except ye are of that seed in Me, by being Chosen in Him before the foundation of the World [Eph 1:4] ye cannot see or understand the Kingdom of God, which is to include it's Gospel, The Gospel of the Kingdom or of the Kingdom of God. Matt 24:14

    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    Mark 1:14

    Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

    Which are also the Kingdom Mysteries Luke 8:10

    And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

    Now, even though Jesus was giving a condition " except ye be born again ", yet He was not giving a imperative or duty for one to perform to become born again; because there is nothing a person can do to be born; even if it was for us to go back into our mothers womb, [ which its not] how could we accomplish that ? Could we make ourselves fetuses again ? Would that be in our ability ?

    But nevertheless, Christ meant what He said in stating that 'Ye must be born Again " !
     
    #1 savedbymercy, Jun 24, 2011
  2. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Hi savedbymercy

    That happens (born again) in the twinkling of an eye as the last trumpet sounds.
     
    #2 Chowmah, Jun 24, 2011
  3. Fred's Wife

    Fred's Wife Member

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    Chowmah, you are incorrect.

    To be born again happens when a sinner receives new life from God (John 3:1-16) and is born into God's family (John 1:12-13). This new life is received by trusting Jesus Christ (John 3:7-16; 1:12; 1John 5:1).

    People are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel of Christ (1Corinthians 4:15; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).

    Those who are born again have eternal inheritance and are preserved by God (1 Peter 1:3-5). Their lives, also, are completely changed by the power of the indwelling Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 John 3:14).
     
    #3 Fred's Wife, Jun 24, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2011
  4. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    The scriptures are not incorrect

    1PETER1 [23] BEING BORN AGAIN, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.[24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away.

    1COR.15 [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION:.....[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    PHIL.3 [20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    In the twinklin of an eye
     
    #4 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
  5. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

    Nicodemus asks, how can a man be born when he is old? Job asks, If a man die, shall he live again? After the heavens be no more, says Job. Then will his "change" come

    2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

    I know this will upset the rapturist but the "we shall all be changed" happens at the coming of the Day of the Lord as the heavens pass away. At this time we are born again (corruptible puts on incorruption) and will be gathered and then its off to the kingdom. The 1000yr period of rest
     
    #5 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
  6. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    But Chowmah, where do any of those verses say that the new birth does not happen until the last trumpet shall sound?

    Certainly the verse from Peter's first letter includes the words "being born again", but he cannot mean that the new birth was still in the future for his readers. He has already written in verse 3 of the same chapter:
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
    ​
    The people he was writing to already had been born (begotten) again, by the incorruptible seed which Peter says is the Word of God!

    If, as you say, the new birth only happens at the last trumpet, then Jesus must have been mistaken when He said in John 6.47:
    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."
    ​
    He didn't say, "He that believeth on me will have everlasting life."
     
    #6 David Lamb, Jun 25, 2011
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    So you say !
     
    #7 savedbymercy, Jun 25, 2011
  8. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Im not sure i understand your question

    1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

    MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period on the Day of the Lord {easy to prove}. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.

    Did i answer your question?
     
    #8 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
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  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    To be born, one must first be in something, in order to be born out of it.

    Peter said 1 Pet 1:

    23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    The word of here is the greek word ek and it means:

    out of, from, by, away from

    This denotes that being born is out of a seed ! Those who are born physically out of Adam, the corruptible seed, they were in Adam from the beginning of creation. Their physical lives were included in the them . Gen 1:27

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Gen 5:2

    Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


    When Adam was first created he had created within him his wife and his offspring that he was to bring forth, this we know because God said to him after He created him Gen 1:27-28

    27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:

    Adam had a seed to bring forth of his kind as all living creatures did.

    We know God had given them a seed from these words Gen 3:15

    15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her [Eve] seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Of course Eve's seed was Adam's seed.

    Gen 4:25

    25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

    Now hopefully we see the concept of being born entails first having a existence in a seed. Unfortunately being of ones seed is not determined by the offspring.

    For instance, Levi did not determine himself to be of the seed of Abraham, to be in Abraham's loins as here Heb 7:9-10

    9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    Who determined that Levi was of the seed of Abraham ?
     
    #9 savedbymercy, Jun 25, 2011
  10. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Sorry Savedbymercy, i cant follow your drift
     
    #10 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
  11. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Hello David
    The key words of that scripture are "lively hope". Many people will claim they were BORN AGAIN on such and such a date. And now they are saved

    ROMANS 8 [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    Those who claim they are born again and already saved have nothing more to hope for​
     
    #11 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
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  12. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    LAM.3 [24] The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.[25] The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.[26] It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

    This scripture is obviously written those who believe {the Lord is my portion}. They are not yet saved. They hope and wait patiently for salvation
     
    #12 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
  13. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Hey David
    Found another. HOPE theres more

    1PETER1
    [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;

    Hope. Till His 2nd coming

    ROMANS 8 [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    Saved by hope
     
    #13 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
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  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Thats too bad.
     
    #14 savedbymercy, Jun 25, 2011
  15. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Have you ever considered a text within its context before using it for your pretext????? Romans 8:24-25 has reference to the PHYSICAL BODY of the elect and the hope of its future glorification rather than hope to obtain eternal life in the spirit of man.

    Salvation begins with the REGENERATION of the spirit of man (Jn. 3:6) and continues with the PROGRESSIVE SANCTIFICATION of the soul of man and concludes with the GLORIFICATION of the body of man in the resurrection and reunion of the immaterial and material aspects of human nature.

    The hope that is not yet seen is the hope of glorification, the hope of heaven simply because it has not yet occurred. However, the Bible prophets and Christ are very clear that the believer NOW has salvation and NOW has passed from death to life in regard to eternal condemnation (Jn. 3:16, 36; 5:24; 6"37-40; 10:29-30; 1 Jn. 5:13; etc., etc., etc.).

    You simply do not understand the composite make up of man nor the composite aspects of salvation of man. You don't recognize the past, present and future tense uses of salvation (saved, save, shall be saved). You don't recognize or understand the difference between regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification. Hence, you will never use any text according to its context but always jerk them out of context to support your pretext.
     
    #15 Dr. Walter, Jun 25, 2011
  16. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Ok good doctor
    maybe you can explain these scriptures from 1Peter1

    1PETER1
    [4] To AN INHERITANCE INCORRUPTIBLE, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto SALVATION READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.

    Inheritance??? reserved??? Revealed in the last time

    [9] Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    Recieving the end of your faith even the salvation...

    [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;

    Hope till the end. Till when? Till Jesus returns

    [23] BEING BORN AGAIN, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    [24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away.

    1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Help me out Dr. Why dont these scriptures mean what they say
     
    #16 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    All of the above verses have nothing to do with the new birth. They are addressed to believers, those who have already been born again. Jesus said to Nicodemus: You must be born again. Peter wrote to those who had been born again.
    See the past tense being used here.
    They were born again... by the Word of God..
    The word of God is instrumental in the new birth.
    The above verses have nothing to do with the new birth and do not claim to. To understand the new birth you must go back and verse by verse go through John 3:1-11, and see what it means.
     
    #17 DHK, Jun 25, 2011
  18. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    OK

    JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[6] That which is BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH; and that which is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT

    Flesh is flesh DHK and flesh will not enter the kingdom

    1COR.15
    [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION:
    [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. THERE IS A NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY.

    There is a natural body (flesh) and theres a spiritual body. Before you enter the kingdom you will be changed {born again} in the twinkling of an eye from fleshly body to spiritual body
     
    #18 Chowmah, Jun 25, 2011
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  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    #19 Martin Marprelate, Jun 25, 2011
  20. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You cannot omit "born of spirit is spirit" and simply jump over to "born of flesh is flesh." What has been born of spirit has been spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) and yet they were physically alive. What was spiritually dead is NOW spiritually alive - that is regeneration and is a past tense realtiy (Tit. 3:5).

    I Corinthians 15 is not talking about the present but the future and is not talking about the spirit but the body and is yet future.

    Go back to John 3:6 and be honest enough to acknowledge that Jesus is denying he is talking about a rebirth of the flesh but is asserting and distinguishing from the flesh the need of a reborn "spirit." You are attempting to make them synonomous when Jesus is denying they are synonomous.
     
    #20 Dr. Walter, Jun 25, 2011
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