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Calvinists and any other friendly to the doctrines of grace respond here!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2011.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In a previous exchange on Benjamins question we disagreed to a point where he believed my response to be completely unbiblical.
    how do you see it?




    QuoteDo you explain to a lost and searching person that the promise of grace isn't "real" to them unless they are elect and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected?

    Benjamin.....I take the conversation wherever it needs to go;

    1] We are all sinners,having broken God's law in thought word and deed.

    2] God is holy and has planned to punish all sin.....either in the sinner, or In His appointed substitute

    3] Jesus came to save a multitude of sinners, by offering His sinless perfect life as a substitute for those sinners who believe in Him.

    4] Anyone who understands they are guilty before a Holy God...needs to repent of all known sin,and seek God's mercy. As God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

    5] Jesus is the only way..the only thing the Father is well pleased with.

    6] If someone repents and believes the gospel,I explain that God would have them join with a bible believing fellowship,that is the local church.

    Benjamin.. if the person has some religious backround,or brings up certain questions that require me to speak about God's electing purposes I am not shy about that. It has happened many times....it goes something like this;

    I might offer some of what i offered above...then the person starts to question...what about the heathen, or what if someone never hears about Jesus etc.

    1] I explain God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the church,and establish that the scriptures are true and trust worthy.

    2] God's holy law is perfectly just...and must be perfectly kept

    3] Man having fallen in Adam ...is not able to keep the law perfectly

    4] God seeing all mankind as fallen In Adam...has purposed to save a multitude of sinners In Christ.

    5] The Father gives this multitude to the Son before the world was made.

    6] The Son comes into the world in the form of a servant,to live and die for these chosen and elected persons.

    7] The Son has promised that each and everyone of these persons...at a point in time....will repent and believe the gospel not one will be lost

    8] I ask the person if Jesus said all that are given will come to Him...have you came to Jesus savingly yet? If not why not. I do my best to leave them with no hope...outside of Jesus....

    9] I quote Jesus words to those in jn8
    24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    and Hebrews 7;
    25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

    As I say...if the conversation goes this way...I will go this way.


    Quote:
    and they may not have any hope because they may not have been pre-selected

    Benjamin...this is a good question...
    I never say it that way....

    1] I do not know if he is elect or not

    2] He does not know if he is elect or not

    3] I make Clear that Jesus alone is the only Saviour of sinners

    4] if election comes up.....I stress that it is certain to come to pass..I tell Him the truth...do not hide it under a bushel.
    5] I stress that the issue he needs to concern himself with..is His sin against a Holy God that has to be paid for.....He is responsible to repent and believe the gospel command.

    6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

    7] I do not give Him false hope, I do not give him no hope.....just point out that the only Hope is In Jesus...not remaining in Adam.

    Benjamin....

    Quote:
    and you wouldn't want to preach that dogma in front on me

    I would have no trouble preaching the bible truth in front of you...as you cannot change it. God's truth stands. The Apostles had no problem whatsoever writing this truth to all the new churches...we should not have trouble with it.
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2011
  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Good points. We simply preach Christ, His elect will respond, 2 Timothy 2:10, and none of His will be lost. There is no "darkness" in the message in which we preach. We simply preach the Gospel. We preach, and His are saved. There is no presentation of "if you're elect" but instead, and again, the Gospel is preached, and His respond unto salvation. Simple dependence upon Him. We know no other way brother.

    - Peace to you
     
    #2 preacher4truth, Jul 29, 2011
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Your responses sound excellent and pretty much the way I'd deal with it as well!! Thanks for writing everything out though!! It's nice to see how other people discuss the issues as well. :)
     
    #3 annsni, Jul 29, 2011
  4. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Iconoclast, this is excellent. I'm sure many people who witness have found that there will be attempts to chase rabbits, distract you from what you're doing, or just plain try to get you to change the subject.

    You have provide some good examples of how to keep the conversation on track.
     
    #4 Tom Butler, Jul 29, 2011
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Amen. We preach Law and Gospel. Explaining in as much detail as we can the awfulness of sin and consequences thereof. Then the Good News that Jesus came to bear sin of the world - not just Jews but Gentiles, too. Woohoo!!

    I do my best to convince people of these truths. But the light will not come on unless God's Spirit regenerates their hearts. They can be any sort of sinner (Rom 1-3 speaks of reprobate, rational, reformed and religious types) but they will not respond in true faith and bear fruit of repentance unless the Spirit does the work.

    It is not what man does that counts; it is what God does. Then man, those truly born again, will do what we are appointed to do - a life of good works.

    It is by grace you have been saved, through faith. Such [saving] faith is not found within us; it is the gift of God. It does not come from our works, so that no one can boast.

    For we are GOD'S work (not our own), created in Christ Jesus for US to work good deeds that God decreed in eternity past for us to do.
     
    #5 Dr. Bob, Jul 29, 2011
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Good Post Dr.Bob,
    well written direct and to the point:thumbsup:
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2011
  7. baptisttom

    baptisttom New Member
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    I read and really don't post, but to my brother who wrote the original post, I say a hearty AMEN!!! As one preacher friend once told me as I was making my journey toward a proper understanding of the Doctrines of Grace -- "It's flat out hard to argue with an open Bible!"
     
    #7 baptisttom, Jul 30, 2011
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbsup: Well yes exactly. If you just let the bible speak it seems simple if we just trust and obey.
    God is God.....we are not!
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Jul 30, 2011
  9. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff! We really do well to stay away from the rabbit trails in our witnessing to unbelievers.
     
    #9 Tom Bryant, Jul 30, 2011
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Is that a little known word called "Obedience" ?

    I would add though that reading the scriptures can & will confuse you (The Devil wishes to confound you be twisting word & meaning) ..... so I pray to the HS prior to cracking open a bible to have His enlightenment.
     
    #10 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 30, 2011
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Good posts,

    :thumbsup::thumbs::wavey:looks like we all are pretty much in agreement.Imagine that.
     
    #11 Iconoclast, Jul 31, 2011
  12. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    You going to pursue an exchange using my name and repost a disagreement then try to show some integrity and repost my responses to it...
     
    #12 Benjamin, Jul 31, 2011
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  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    ________________________________________________________
     
    #13 Benjamin, Jul 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2011
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Amen and thanks. Ever notice how Jesus got on "rabbit trails" after preaching to save His? When those who weren't His, who relentlesly attacked and didn't believe, He went into explaining "election" in a sense via "You are not my sheep...you don't believe my Word because you are not my sheep...no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" So this was allowable in public ministry at a point.
     
    #14 preacher4truth, Jul 31, 2011
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #15 Aaron, Jul 31, 2011
  16. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Jesus never preached election to be pre-determined, that salvation/grace is "really" only offered for the pre-selected few; He said if He be lifted up He will draw ALL men. He wasn’t trying to create "rabbit trails" that suggest some have no hope as you do! What you do is nothing less than twisting His Word to force fit it into a dark doctrine of pre-selection; Jesus brought light into all the world and gave “real” hope for all men. Jesus never used deceitful means (the kind of rabbit trails you refer to) to deliver His message/promise to the world! Jesus is "Truth" and Light.
     
    #16 Benjamin, Jul 31, 2011
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #17 quantumfaith, Jul 31, 2011
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    The "sheep" are the Israelites who believed God and were waiting for their Messiah.
    Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    That's why Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice. They (the Jews) recognized Jesus as Messiah because of their faith in God and the scriptures.



    But....there would be more sheep to come.

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Jesus would be lifted up to draw ALL men (not just Jews) to Him.

    Then there would neither be Jew nor Greek, but one man in Christ Jesus.


    It's important to realize who Jesus is talking to in order to understand what He is saying.
     
    #18 Amy.G, Jul 31, 2011
  19. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Oh, you don't know Scripture.

    Your bad.

    And they (His sheep) weren't only limited to the nation of Israel. :)

    Joh 11:52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

    :wavey:
     
    #19 preacher4truth, Jul 31, 2011
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Benjamin, thanks for posting those links.

    Jesus certainly did preach election as he came as the Elect Servant spoken of by Isaiah. Grace is offered to" all men who hear the gospel".
    The fact that many remain in rebellion does not mean that grace was not really offered.
    We offer the gospel to all men everywhere. We know that judgement day is coming, we know that all men will not be saved.
    Bible truth is not dark doctrine ..as you say. It is revealed truth.
    When God only chose one nation out of all the nations in the OT..was that "dark doctrine"?
    Election of a nation[some of whom were saved] or election of individuals are God's way of saving His people. Paul called it a blessing and gave thanks for it......No dark doctrine here.

    Benjamin have you really looked at the teaching first hand? Or just reacted against it like so many do.
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Jul 31, 2011
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