It's true, AGREEMENT!

Wednesday Crucifixion— Why no!

GE:
Dear Ituttut,
Thank you from the depth of my heart for your responses and your wonderful attitude on this web page, http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=73164&page=4.

I post them here, arranged in response-to-response order, with remarks by myself with which I hope that more light will be shed on the remaining difficulties between us.

I hope you have read my posts, “BONE-day” combining day” http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=73633. Much of what I wrote there, will apply here.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=73164&page=4
GE:
No Dr Walter, I have said everything I could, already.
I have finished with this conversation.
If you feel you have 'WON', enjoy your feeling!
God be with you
GE

DW:
Here are your words:
Luke by having said, “"TODAY IS THE THIRD DAY" since he was crucified”, IMPLIED Sunday was the fourth day “from” and INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion in the most definitive and definite manner language could convey the IMPLICATION.
1. You are quoting Luke 21:24 when you put in parenthesis "TODAY IS THE THIRD DAY since he was crucified"
2. You are drawing an implication from these words when you say, "IMPLIED Sunday was the fourth day "from" and INCLUDING, the day of Crucifixion"
You are wrong in your drawn implication. Sunday is not the fourth day "from" (apo) from the Crucifixion as that would demand that "apo" includes the day of crucifixion but the very root idea of apo is from the exterior not the interior of that day. You are wrong that "apo" allows "INCLUDING, the day of Crucifixion" - You are simply just wrong and too proud to admit it.

GE:
Ituttut, read Exodus 12:15. It says,
"Seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread." Then it goes on to explain the chronology as well as methodology of passover days and events --- the 'when' and the 'how' of the passover days and events.

IT:
We do agree it does say seven days shall you eat.

 

GE:
Exodus 12:15 goes on to explain,
"Even the first day (of passover) ye shall PUT AWAY LEAVEN".
That is one day, the first day of passover, “when ye put away leaven”. Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30; 19:14 1Corinthians 11:23 … and “they had to always kill the passover” … “The day BEFORE the Feast … The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER”!

Remark:
Putting away leaven and the eating of unleavened bread were the two duties pertaining unleavened bread which both were to be done on, "even the first day” of passover, clearly dated in daytime “the fourteenth day” in 12:6, and “in the SAME night” of the same fourteenth day in 12:8— four times called “the Selfsame BONE-day” in 12:17,41,46,51!
Therefore, WHY can we not also agree 12:15 does say seven days shall you EAT, WHILE taking for granted on the first of these seven days ye shall also REMOVE leaven and kill the sacrifice? It is accepting nothing more than what the text and context say and imply, and in fact, command.

IT:
We are going somewhere tomorrow. We are preparing to do so. Is today the 1st day, or will tomorrow be the 1st day? What we accomplish today (our Passover) will turn into tomorrow, day 1. Could we be saying the same thing?

Remark:
I think, very much the same. Indeed I think we are thinking the way the writer of Exodus 12 was thinking himself. I have tried to indicate the thrust of the writer’s thinking when I said this “very first day” _OF_ “passover”_, “the fourteenth-BECAME-the-fifteenth day” of the First Month. One MUST grasp this REALITY of the day, having been the day of EXODUS OUT FROM Egypt and away from a sunRISE-reckoning under the pagan system; and having been the day of PASSING OVER TOWARDS and into the Promised Land and adapting its reckoning to a sunSET-reckoning under Theocratic rule.

It is irrevocable and indisputable Exodus uses ONLY the “fourteenth day” for everything that happened between 12:1— in fact from 11:1, “_IN_ Egypt”, and, 13:8, even 14, “… _IN THAT (same) day_ … WHEN I CAME OUT of Egypt.” It is just as irrevocable and indisputable the other Scriptures place the TWO – and THREE duties of “remove leaven”, “kill the passover” and “EAT … the flesh with unleavened bread”, on consecutive days and DATES.
The fourteenth day in Exodus 12 up to verse 14, BECAME the fifteenth day through verses 15 and 18, and – mentioned or just supposed – permanently stayed the fifteenth day, ever after.

GE:
The KJV renders the Hebrew, correctly, yes; it says,
"EVEN THE FIRST day ...".
The Hebrew actually is, "On the day the HEAD day / the VERY first day / the FIRST, first day ...".
Because the day on which the leaven was removed, was ...
... One, the very same day that they KILLED the passover sacrifice Exodus 12:6; and ...
... Two, was viewed as "The Preparation-of-the-Passover" John 19:14.

IT:
May I put it this way… all I have said is what you show John to say, viz. the Passover includes necessary preparation that same day; however the 7 days of the feast of unleavened bread does not begin until the next day, Nisan 15.

Remark:
Absolutely RIGHT!
The only seeming difference between our understandings is, _WHAT_ do you view as necessarily, “preparation” but impossibly “feast”?
Now it is clear the fourteenth day as such – as and for having been the day that “ye shall kill the passover” and as and for having been the day that “ye shall remove leaven”, from its NATURE was necessarily “preparation” and “Preparation Day of Passover”— YET, in verse 14, the SAME day and date, is STILL and expressly called, and commanded to be, “FEAST”!

Yes, the fourteenth day of the First Month “shall be FEAST!” And “Feast” is “Feast”, for no reason than the day of “Feast” is day of “EATING AND DRINKING OF FEAST”. In Exodus 12 unleavened bread was first day of seven days of unleavened bread EAT, “the fourteenth day of the First Month”.

The eye cannot see over these truths, nor can the heart desire against it, except a man be stiff-necked and think nothing to “think above what is written” which is to “think too much of himself”.

 

This very day the fourteenth day of the First Month in its day and in its night-halve, consistently is in Exodus 12 called and by nature through its events, “_passover_”, as it is also, expressly called and by nature through its events, “Feast”. The difference that exists between Exodus and the other Scriptures concerning the nature and date of the passover as the killing of the sacrifice and the removal of leaven, and the passover as the passover-FEAST of the EATING of “the flesh with unleavened bread”, must be dealt with honestly and with a praying heart desirous to obey, without compromise in any way.

GE:
I think you have a problem though, with the English word, ‘evening’, in Exodus 12:6. It is a 1611 English word. The Hebrew word is ‘ereb’ which simply means, ‘late’. In modern English the best if not the only word for it in the context of the time the passover lamb was slaughtered, is ‘afternoon’. Therefore, afternoon ON the fourteenth day BEFORE sunset— LONG before sunset! Three hours exactly before sunset if Jesus’ death is regarded the norm. He died “the ninth hour”.
The Jews speak of ‘bedikat gamets’ – the ceremonial removal of leaven in the night

IT:
This is factored into what I have posted. The ninth (9th) hour of their day is 3PM our time. Their daytime started at 6AM, and nine (9) hours later it is 3PM.

GE:
Now on this “very first DAY”, dough “WITHOUT LEAVEN” had been ‘prepared’ and made ready so that when the Israelites just after midnight moved out, they “carried their dough on their shoulders, out”!

IT:
I have said, just as scriptures tell us, the dough was made ready before the 1st day of 7 days of Unleavened Bread, which day was Thursday Nisan 15. The Lord's Passover supper was consumed on the same day that He was slaughtered. And this dough had been prepared before the 15th of Nisan. No manual labor, such as making dough could be done that High Sabbath day, Thursday, Nisan 15.

Remark:
Here unfortunately a great lot of things come to the fore now that involve SERIOUS differences, mainly because simply, they are added, unnecessary, or and surmised.

The Scriptures yes – EXCEPT Exodus –, “tell us, the dough was made ready before the 1st day of 7 days of Unleavened Bread”.
Exodus however, tells us differently – as explained above. It says, “_ON_ the first day of 7 days of Unleavened Bread”; not, “before the 1st day”. 12:15.
Ezekiel 45:21-23 and Deuteronomy 27 also do not mention the date of the fifteenth, but the passages do read so as to allow one to suppose the date of the fifteenth day. Exodus 12 mentions both passover-kill day and passover-eat day on the fourteenth day, but eventually in such a way that the date of the fifteenth’s feasting with eating, not only can be deduced, but logically must be kept in mind … verses 15 and 18 especially.

GE:
Exodus 12 was written of course at a time much later than the exodus itself. But Exodus is the only book of the Torah that gives the history of the exodus AS it happened FROM WITHIN EGYPT, when, and where, days were reckoned sunrise to sunrise still. Therefore Abib 14 and 15 as it were MERGED, both days Abib 14 and 15 being dated the fourteenth in Exodus. That very first night after the daylight of the fourteenth in which they had slaughtered the sacrifice, the Israelites already had their dough prepared, and they ALREADY in THAT VERY FIRST NIGHT, ate bread of the unleavened dough which they had prepared that very same day that they killed the sacrifice on. They ate “the flesh”, “WITH unleavened bread” in the night of their exodus, the night of the fourteenth – in EXODUS: that night found dated the night of the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month in Exodus 12:6,8.

Remark:

Then yes again after so long a time The Lord's [‘Passover’] Supper was consumed on the same day that He was _TO BE_ slaughtered. That is what the Gospels tell us.

But, at the FIRST of all passovers – the one out of Egypt under Moses mentioned in Exodus –, the passover was SLAUGHTERED in the BEGINNING- and daylight-part of the fourteenth in its ending daylight; and it was EATEN in the ENDING of the fourteenth in its “NIGHT-of-passing-over” into the still undeclared fifteenth day ON THEIR WAY OUT TOWARDS and into the Promised Land.
All subsequent passovers therefore --- because of their passover-nature --- were EATEN on the fifteenth day in its BEGINNING- and night-part. Also the Jews AFTER our Lord's once for all TRUE Passover through crucifixion and death, would still eat the OLD Testament passover meal AFTER that He was slaughtered and AFTER the day that He was slaughtered— which therefore was the Jews’ absolutely useless eating.

IT:
And I fully agree with Exodus 12:6-8, they are to eat unleavened bread on the 14th day of Nisan. But the feast of unleavened bread does not start until Nisan 15.

Remark:
That would mean that unleavened bread was eaten eight days.
But it is commanded, “Seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread. … whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day (ye shall eat unleavened bread), that soul shall be cut off.”
Therefore, again, according to Exodus they were to eat unleavened bread on the 14th day of Nisan— on the 14th day of Nisan which Exodus 12:14 calls the FEAST and verse 15 calls, A: “the first, first day ye shall REMOVE leaven”; and B: “the first day no leavened bread shall be eaten”.
But in no other Scripture and on no other 14th day of Nisan ever again is the fourteenth day called or viewed as or supposed for the passover’s “feast”. “Seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread”; not eight days ye shall eat unleavened bread.
The fourteenth of the First Month in Exodus became the fifteenth day of the First Month in subsequent Scriptures --- right through and throughout the New Testament too. The fourteenth of Exodus 12:14 became “the Feast” on Nisan 15 in the Gospels.

 

GE:
That very first night after they had slaughtered the sacrifice, the Israelites HAD their dough prepared, and they ALREADY in THAT VERY FIRST NIGHT, ate bread of the unleavened dough. They ate “the flesh”, “WITH unleavened bread” in the night of their exodus. And that night is found dated the night of the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month, the first and only first day of ‘passover’ or ‘passover season’. Exodus 12:6,8.
And that is why the Jews to this day have ‘Bedikat Gamets’ – the Removal of Leaven in the night of Abib 14 which while they were in Egypt was Abib 13 still.
I must say I previously thought they only ate the sacrifice and no unleavened bread. But the fact the Israelites ate unleavened bread “with the flesh” IN THE NIGHT OF THEIR EXODUS, has today been a new insight to me; an exiting first time discovery— for which I thank the Lord as well as my debaters.
The rest then is as I have been maintaining from long ago …
Exodus 12 continues in verse 15 to describe BOTH days or aspects of passover,
“Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread …”

IT:
We have all been tweaked along the way. May I interject here what I have before posted, and stand by what is found in Leviticus 23:6, which to me is very clear. "And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread."
It also helps me to remember TWO things are involved.
One is a happening, the Fourteenth.
Followed by 7 days of u unleavened bread.

Remark:
Yes, "on the fifteenth day of the same (First) Month is the Feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread." On the fourteenth day, “Ye shall remove leaven out of your houses.” On the fourteenth day, ye shall PREPARE the dough. “On the fifteenth day in its night ye shall EAT unleavened bread.”
TWO things are involved: PREPARE on the fourteenth day; EAT on the fifteenth day --- first time --- followed by SIX more days of unleavened bread EAT, and the seventh and last time EAT, will and must fall on “the twenty and first day of the First Month in its night”.

GE:
As follows …
… “The VERY FIRST day [Abib 14] ye shall PUT AWAY LEAVEN.”
So …
Exodus 12:18,
“Ye shall eat unleavened bread until the ONE AND TWENTIETH day in the night”—
Evening after sunset 15 Abib : first day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 16 Abib : second day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 17 Abib : third day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 18 Abib : fourth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 19 Abib : fifth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 20 Abib : sixth day unleavened bread;
Evening after sunset 21 Abib : seventh day unleavened bread.

IT:
Aren't you saying the same as I, begin on the 15th day to begin counting? It begins on Thursday, ending on Wednesday the 21st.

Reference to GE’s statement:
“Dear Ituttut, you should DISTINGUISH between "The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER" John 19:14 "the day BEFORE the feast" John 13:1,
and,
"The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath".
You should, but you do not.
Go do distinguish the two, separate days, and you'll see what I mean.”

IT:
John 19:14, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"
Jon 13:1 tells us the Lord's Supper was eaten on Nisan 14, shortly after 6pm, the starting of their 24-hour day. Then we see on that same day at noon, ", Behold your King!"

Remark:
100% agreement.
Hey everybody, look! Agreement! Praise the LORD!

.......

But lo! not so perfect agreement! ---

IT:

"John 19:14, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"
Jon 13:1 tells us the Lord's Supper was eaten on Nisan 14, shortly after 6pm, the starting of their 24-hour day. Then we see on that same day at noon, ", Behold your King!""

GE:

Careful now, "John 19:14, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour" --- John uses ROMAN count of hour on the clock!: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

Therefore:
Jon 13:1 tells us the Lord's Supper was eaten on Nisan 14, shortly after 6pm," --- "evening" Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 "... the starting of their 24-hour day" sunset to sunset. Then we see on that same day at EARLY MORNING, "SIX ON THE CLOCK" John 19:14, "Behold your King!"

 

Dr. Walter:
Both you and GE have your nice little games of mental gynastics that you play with God's Word. You both have a LOGICAL basis for your positions but both of you begin at the same bottom line - HUMAN LOGIC rather than explicit scriptures.
For example. Show me just one scripture where it is said explicitly that a "day" must be a full 24 hours and that a part of day cannot be reckoned as a whole in Jewish thinking? For example, on several occassions Jesus spent the night in prayer. According to your LOGIC he must have begun his prayer at 6 pm sharp or when the sun went down and ended his praying at 6 am sharp or when the sun gave first light or a full 12 hours or else he did not spend the "night" in prayer.

 

Dear Ituttut,

What do you make of the BONE-day of Christ's Sufferings?

 

I suppose this thread can be archived --- if the Board might think it worthwhile.

The 'agreement' scarcely lasted a single second ....

That's how it goes, I suppose ....