A close look at Rom 11 !

This thread is a continuation of what I began to set forth in another thread that was started by another forum member. I will continue the presentation of Romans 11 here and show that it has never been God's Intention nor desire to save all of Ethnic Israel, all of Israel Yes, but not all of ethnic Israel. The Israel God has promised to save as here Isa 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Not National Israel, but Israel, the Chosen People of God in Christ. All of the promises of God are yea and amen IN HIM to the Glory of God 2 Cor 1:20

For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Now is Isa 45:17 a Promise of God ? If it is, then its fulfilled through Christ and His Everlasting Salvation which He wrought through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20 as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep.

Before resuming what has been started in the other thread let me set the foundation here of what has been the problem.

Much of what God promised to Israel [ Spiritual Israel] was as She was conjoined with Natural Israel, for they had one thing in common, Abraham was their Father, according to the Flesh. However we must remember that God has always [in spite of the co mingling of both the spiritual and natural descendants of Abraham] God has always realized Two Israel's Abraham's Spiritual Seed and His Natural Seed.

Jesus said once to Abraham's Natural Seed the jews this Jn 8:37

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Then right after that He says Jn 8:39

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You see that ? Here Jesus is denying that they are Abraham's Children ! Why ? Because Jesus is making a distinction between Abraham's Physical Seed and His Spiritual Seed.

And so Paul affirms this truth, that there are Two Israel's by Rom 9:6


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Amen, thats exactly what Jesus was Illustrating in Jn 8:37-39. Now what can be confusing is this, That the spiritual seed that was in Ethnic Israel, are not manifested as the Spiritual Seed until Faith has been given them, so until then they can only be recognized as part of the mere physical seed.

Now under the Old Economy, the Children of Promise [ Spiritual Israel] and the Children of the Flesh [ Natural Israel] coexisted together under one National Covenant. The children of the bondwoman, those under the mosaic covenant given at Sinai, The Israel or Jerusalem from below with the children of the freewoman under the eternal and heavenly covenant Jerusalem from above See Gal 4. However under the New Covenant Economy this would have to end, which was prefigured allegorically when Sarah told Abraham to get rid of Hagar [The Bond woman] and he son for they shall not be heirs with the Child of Promise Isaac Gal 4:30

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

And thats what the casting away of National Israel according to the flesh fulfills.

Rom 11:15

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


You see apparently for a long time the Two sets of Children shared the same Covenant Home Ishmael and Isaac, this prefigures how that Israel of the flesh had joint privileges with Israel of Promise, thats why both elect jews and non elect jews could partake of the Lord's passover, because the children of the flesh and of the promise had the same Natural Father, Abraham, just like Ishmael and Isaac ! But God always made a difference. Now under the New Covenant dispensation this difference would be made more conspicuous with those who believed on Christ and those who did not. Abraham's Spiritual Seed, the Isaacs will or did receive Christ, but his mere physical seed will not. So Faith is the distinguishing evidence of who Israel of Promise is, and not national distinction or any physical or racial distancing. But Faith has always been the main evidence since it was by Faith that Heb 11:

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

And os its by Faith we are the True Children of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise Gal 3:7,9

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

I will resume the Rom 11 study with a look at vs 15

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

I welcome all comments as long as they are in direct response to what I point out, please no rabbit trails and be able to provide an alternative view with corresponding explanation as I have done.

 

Rom 11:15

15 for if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul is in essence saying here, if the breaking off of National Israel [ Many ethnic Jews in Israel] for the purpose of reconciling or grafting into Covenant Israel [ The election] Gentiles [ Eph 2] , what shall the receiving of them be [ the Elect Remnant in Israel] but life from the dead. Basically, to see some of His own countrymen converted to Jesus Christ, after the nation as a whole had been cut off and Judged by the cross, that would be like experiencing life from the dead.

In other words, there were [ at Paul's time] yet some ethnic Jews , who belonged to Christ, but yet appeared to be broken off because of their unbelief, they would yet still experience a spiritual resurrection, be passed from death unto life, because they [as Paul] belonged to the election of grace.

Seeing one of His fellow countrymen converted to Jesus, is like life from the dead Paul is saying.
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dw

Yes. National Israel was comprised of ethnic jews, however the casting away of National Israel does not mean all ethnic jews are without hope of Salvation. Some of them are of the remnant according to the Election of Grace, and they will be made manifest whenever they beome Believers in Christ..

 

dw

No it doesn't. The Nation as a whole was cut off from National Covenant with God, however that does not mean their were not still individual jews to be converted to Christ. Thats why Paul said that blindness in part has happened to National Israel, indicating that not all of Abraham's Physical descendants from there are without hope of salvation.

That's why Paul said that there was in His Present time still a remnant there according to the election of Grace.

Also Rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Thats why he said in 1 Cor 9 about the jews this 1 Cor 9:19-20

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

dw

Your interpretation fails to take into consideration that Abraham's Physical descendants apart from the elect in Christ are not the Children of God..Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

dw

Being a Physical jew without being in Christ, even if you can trace your ancestry to Abraham himself, means absolutely nothing, just like Ishmael.

Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And thats a Lie. Their is no ethnicity difference in Christ. Being Spiritual has nothing to do with fleshly descendant. The flesh means nothing. Jn 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jn 1:12-13

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Your interpretation is against one of the main accomplishments of the Cross ! Eph 2:

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

You are making race to play a factor in spiritual matters ! Thats an abomination before the Lord..

Spiritual Israel, the spiritual children of Abraham are all believers in Christ regardless of ethnicity Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Your bigotry interpretation makes it that only ethnic jews belong to Christ ! I smell false Gospel..

 

dw

You indicted yourself by making the false claim that Spiritual Israel is made up of Abraham's children of the flesh. Spiritual Israel is Just that, Spiritual Israel, Abraham's Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you believe Paul here is Just speaking to ethnic jews as belonging to Christ and are Abraham's seed ?

 

dw

The ethnic jews of the election of Grace are who Paul means. If they are not of the election, then He knows they are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The remnant of the election of grace in ethnic Israel are the only ones the Promises belonged to in Rom 9:3-5

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The election within the nation did obtain the promises, the rest ,which are the children of the flesh were blinded.

Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now, if any[ethnic jew] still be of the Election of Grace, they will be converted as individuals, just as Gentiles will be who are of the Election of Grace.

Other than that, an ethnic jew in and of itself, means nothing to God ! Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Your error is that you make the fleshly seed of Abraham, to be all the children of Promise or Spiritual Israel, and thats a lie.

And you failed to address a question.

You indicted yourself by making the false claim that Spiritual Israel is made up of Abraham's children of the flesh. Spiritual Israel is Just that, Spiritual Israel, Abraham's Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you believe Paul here is Just speaking to ethnic jews as belonging to Christ and are Abraham's seed ?

 

dw

Who said you did ?

 

dw

I did not ask you that. Do you believe Abraham's seed in Gal 3:29 is restricted to only ethnic jews ? And if you concede that the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:29 is comprised of Gentiles, then are these Gentiles the seed of Abraham Naturally or Spiritually..