Church growth- who cares?

I guess that if the pastor doesn't have a secular job, that it matters a ton.

 

We should be out in our communities contacting those who do not know Christ. Having said that we must go further and grow new Christians into deeply spiritual, deeply committed Christians. I am not of the dip them and drop them school. This has been, IMHO, a great failing among many churches and evangelists.

I would rather be part of a small, deeply committed and deeply spiritual church than a part of a large shallow church. The Church of the Savior in Washington, D.C. is a model of this belief. Not many can take the discipline both spiritual and personal that is demanded to be a member there.

http://www.inwardoutward.org/page/who-church-saviour

 

Good one!!!!:laugh::laugh:

 

Amen, Brother Luke, amen....:godisgood::jesus::godisgood::jesus:

 

That would be the ideal. However, I am not convinced that big is better. I would rather see many smaller churches that are deep than a few huge ones. It is easier to be "family" in a smaller church where people really know and love each other.

I do not believe anyone is arguing against that idea.

And you are not if you are not growing in your desire to help others who are poor, in need, with problems, etc. ... not only growing in that desire but actually helping them.

We have Christ's example. He did not refuse to help those he met regardless of their background.

 

Please explain this...

I am a bivocational pastor, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

The OP creates a false conflict.

Don't confuse a growth in your numbers with church growth. Don't assume that those of us that are less concerned about a growth in our numbers are against saving souls. The reality is that many of us care deeply about the lost, want to see souls saved, and want them to be discipled as they should for personal growth in Christ-likeness.

I don't care where people fellowship. I want people who do not know Christ to come to know Him and those who do know Him to know Him more fully.


Now, as to why the Church is in effective?
1. Could be the times. As the day of our Lord draws ever closer people will be increasingly drawn to false teachers and false teaching. Remember Paul's instruction to Timothy regarding preaching the Word.

2. Could be the times. In these last days people are less concerned with living for Christ. Being a Christian is a Sunday morning event, people do what they want the rest of the week.



Preach the Word, Brothers, and let God do the work. He is sovereign and the results are His alone. Be faithful to Him and the Word, that is our calling.

 

Comparing heaven with the church is illogical. I do not know any church that I would remotely consider heaven. Be careful are you may be guilty of selling cheap grace. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer so wisely put it in his excellent book, The Cost of Discipleship ---

I must say you take a very liberal interpretation of verses when you are straining at a gnat to swallow a horse.

 

:thumbsup::applause:

 

As a general statement I truly believe that growth is a sign of health and a sign of changed lives.

Granted, I think we all know anybody can draw a crowd with a good style and easy message. However, if you are doing well in your ministry, over a long term, you will see growth.

How we measure and understand that growth is important. Let me give you a couple of scenarios:
- A church that grows from 50 people to 5,000 people in five to ten years (I know of five or six churches like this) that have proper teaching, biblical preaching, and are wholly orthodox in belief.

- A church that maintains a general number of members and families but is constantly planting new churches and sending members out on mission.

- A church where the members are about getting and going rather than sitting and soaking. I think horizontal growth is just as important as vertical growth and you can have both. Ultimately you have to look around and ask whether the people showing up every Sunday are moving from passive observers to active contenders.

- A church that sees a consistent number of new members coming in, perhaps 5-15% growth, over a long term. This is a sustainable, long term growing context.

I think these are four examples of healthy growth in a church. When we grow we find ourselves having more opportunities for ministry to others. Growth is a dynamic movement of the Holy Spirit that draws others in while equipping and sending scores out.

I've heard this a lot of people, usually in dying churches or non-growing churches. Its a hard sell and I wouldn't want to be making it. Usually we find that people that talk about quality instead of quantity (when they should be able to talk about both) might have the capability to see growth happen.

I remember a friend who went into a medium sized Baptist church in Missouri that had cycled through five pastors in 15 years (not a good trend.) They had stayed at that number even as the community around them was growing. My friend knew there was something holding the church back and through several leadership decisions, altering their methodology in some areas, and bringing vision he released the cap on the church and they began growing quickly. They've almost tripled in four years. He's a great pastor and a great leader, but you wouldn't think of it if you heard him preach. God honoring, God submitted leadership changes things.

I disagree with two things here:
1. Growth isn't impossible in any circumstance, but we can agree that exponential growth is untenable over a long term.

2. The Gospel isn't about conquest (that is a power of this world model) but is about transformation. We are changed people because of grace, but because of military or political or even social might. Sustainable growth in churches begins in the heart, not on the influence a tongue or personality.

Too many ministers take a backseat to growth because they are afraid of what it means. Auto-pilot is an easy way of life.

That said I will concede several things:
1. As I mentioned this idea from some leaders that we need to see exponential growth over decades doesn't work. Every ministry grows through ups and downs. You will not see growth in some years as the same as others.

2. Some leaders get so enamored with growth they will sacrifice their staff members to achieve a worldly number. This has happened to me. A senior pastor of one of my first churches had a number he wanted to hit attendance wise. We weren't making it after two years and he fired half of the staff one Monday. That isn't healthy or God-honoring growth.

3. Numbers do matter to me...however, when I evaluate them I try to see them as a tool among many to understanding situations and contexts. If we see a sudden drop off in a group or ministry after a season of growth, that is worth investigating further. Sometimes, though, our people vote on over-programmed ministry by just disengaging. This happened recently in our ministry. So we just shut the program down and moved on.

4. If we lay out a prayer-bathed, Gospel-breathed, God-led strategic vision based in ministry to people and not feeding the ego we will see growth. However, growth begins with humility. Just my thoughts.

 

The error, which is a great lie from the Devil, that has been swallowed by you and so many other people in the church is that we are "kingdom builders" and that growing the church is our job. That is man-centered garbage that does not exalt the Son, does not glorify the Father, and denies the power and work of the Spirit.

I spent enough time with Word of Faith and other prosperity peddlers to know where that kind of thinking comes from and it's not of God.