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Daniel 8 - 2300 years (day for year) what is it?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 2, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    From another thread


    In Daniel 7, 8, 9 we have the day year model. So in Dan 9 the 490 years (70 weeks) goes from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (after the Babylonian captivity was to end) until the time of "Messiah the Prince".

    In Dan 8 the 2300 days - are 2300 years according to Dan 8:13-14 that span the period of time described by the vision in Dan 8:1-11. Daniel 8 is the only chapter in the Bible that has this number. Daniel 9 refers back to it as "the vision" that was previously given and that needed more detail explanation. At the end of Dan 8 the prophet Daniel is confused and asks for more detailed explanation.

    The question asked in Dan 8:13 "how long is the vision" which is a reference to the vision recorded in vs 1-11. It spans 2300 years starting with events during the Persian empire.

    Dan 8:20-21.

    Daniel 9 points out the fact that the first 490 years of that 2300 year prophecy begin with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem - after the Babylonian captivity - and extends to the coming of the Messiah "the anointed one".

    The 2300 year timeline is never called "the times of the gentiles" that I know of -

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, May 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2013
  2. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I appreciate your response. I have fully read the SDA view of the 2300 but I disagree. The times of the Gentiles is a larger time, from the start of the Babylonian captivity until the establishment of the Kingdom of God in Jerusalem at the return of Jesus from heaven. I gave my understanding of one important fulfillment of the 2300 years:
    The date BC334 corresponds with the principal event in Daniel 8, the slaying of the Medo-Persian Lamb by the Grecian Goat. This event caused Israel to come under the dominion of the Grecian power which was superseded by the Roman power. Both of these were to some extent antagonistic to Israel and their worship, whereas Medo-Persia had been supportive. Luke 21:24 uses the terms of Daniel 8 and speaks of the down-treading (a military term in both contexts) of literal Jerusalem. AD 1967 saw the recapture of Jerusalem by the Jewish forces.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #2 TrevorL, May 3, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    In Daniel 7, 8, 9 we have the day year model. So in Dan 9 the 490 years (70 weeks) goes from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (after the Babylonian captivity was to end) until the time of "Messiah the Prince".

    In Dan 8 the 2300 days - are 2300 years according to Dan 8:13-14 that span the period of time described by the vision in Dan 8:1-11. Daniel 8 is the only chapter in the Bible that has this number. Daniel 9 refers back to it as "the vision" that was previously given and that needed more detail explanation. At the end of Dan 8 the prophet Daniel is confused and asks for more detailed explanation.

    The question asked in Dan 8:13 "how long is the vision" which is a reference to the vision recorded in vs 1-11. It spans 2300 years starting with events during the Persian empire.

    Dan 8:20-21.

    Daniel 9 points out the fact that the first 490 years of that 2300 year prophecy begin with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem - after the Babylonian captivity - and extends to the coming of the Messiah "the anointed one".

    The 2300 year timeline is never called "the times of the gentiles" that I know of -


    Indeed -but no Bible text says the 2300 years of Dan 8 is "the times of the gentiles".

    Do you know of such a text?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, May 3, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The 334 B.C. date is the time of Greece it does not include the conquering power of the Ram as it is expanding towards "west and towards the south". It only contains the downfall of the Ram and the take over by Greece so it cannot answer the question about the span of time covered by the vision - since the vision includes events prior to the downfall of the Ram.

    Israel came under the dominion not only of the Ram but of the Lion before it - mentioned in Dan 7 - Babylon. Israel was still in Babylonian captivity when the Ram came into power.

    The vision covers a 2300 year period that included the dominant period of the Ram, (Persia) and extended through Greece, and through Rome and beyond Rome to the time of the Papacy and the dark ages - and even beyond that.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, May 3, 2013
  5. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,

    Sorry for the delay, but I had other responsibilities and interests. One problem is that what started as one thread is now three and I hope to respond to each gradually. This is partly my fault as I introduced different material, and you correctly saw these as different subjects. Of your two responses on this thread I will quote and respond in a different sequence.
    I would be interested in your definition of "the times of the Gentiles" as it appears in the Luke 21:24 context. When you say “Indeed” above, are you agreeing with my definition as I quoted above? By way of further explanation I believe that the times of the Gentiles is the period of time when certain nations known as Gentiles have dominance over the land of Israel, and over its people the children of Israel, and sometimes disrupting their worship of the God of Israel centred in Jerusalem.

    As far as I am aware the phrase "the times of the Gentiles" only occurs twice, in different contexts. The second is in Romans 11 and speaks of the times when the gospel is preached to the Gentiles, and they are receptive.

    So simply if we are agreed, if you draw a timeline of "the times of the Gentiles" somewhere there would be a shorter period of 2300 years, and we have yet to agree to the correct start and the correct finish of this particular period. But the 2300 years are similar in character to the longer period, the times of the Gentiles.

    I have gathered the above two together because essentially you are saying that the 490 years and the 2300 years must have the same starting point. Also that the 2300 years involves the whole vision of Daniel 8, and because of this fixed starting time that it would be wrong to start at BC 334 as I suggested.

    Daniel 8:19 (KJV): And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
    Daniel 8:24-25 (KJV): 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
    In response to your objection, could you please answer if the year 1844 corresponds with the end of the vision as depicted above? If not then the vision of Daniel 8 is not yet complete and therefore the vision extends longer than the standard William Miller and SDA interpretation.

    You state “The vision covers a 2300 year period that included the dominant period of the Ram, (Persia) and extended through Greece, and through Rome and beyond Rome to the time of the Papacy and the dark ages - and even beyond that.” According to your definition that this power in the latter end of the vision is the Papacy, has the Papacy as yet stood up against the Prince of Princes, and has the Papacy been broken without hands? Was this in 1844 or earlier? I believe it is still future, at the return of Jesus.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #5 TrevorL, May 5, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hello again Trevor

    In Luke 21 and Rev 11:1-5 we read about the "Times of the Gentiles".

    In my agreement with you - I was agreeing that this period of time is beyond the 2300 years.

    You said

    I think the "times of the gentiles" covers the period of time from the destruction of Jerusalem - to the 2nd coming of Christ.

    I don't see anything in Rev 11 that would indicate that the preaching is not being done to both Jew and Gentile.


    The 2300 year timeline is huge.

    The shorter 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 and Rev 11, 12, 13 I think - is the dark ages.




    The whole vision of Dan 8 has to include the period of time where Persia (the Ram) dominates because the question in Dan 8:!3 is about the timeline covered by the vision "how long is the vision".

    No starting point is given in Dan 8 for the 2300 years. All we know is that the vision begins with the time when Persia alone dominates - and that the period of time covered is 2300 years.

    Daniel states that he is confused at the end of Dan 8 and needs an explanation. And the missing piece "the starting point" is what is added in Dan 9 that does not exist in Dan 8.

    The starting point specified in Dan 9 is for 457 B.C. When the command to rebuild Jerusalem according to Ezra 6 and 7 was given. That means that the baptism of "The annointed one" the Messiah - of Dan 9 is in 27 AD. And it means that after 3.5 years of ministry the Messiah is "cut off" just as Dan 9 states and just as we see taking place in the life of Christ.

    Daniel 9 says that 70 weeks are "cut off" from the prior vision - as the first part - and are designated for Israel.

    457 B.C. is during the time of supremacy of the Persian Empire - which fits the starting criteria for "the vision" of Dan 8:13-14.



    The Papacy has declared itself to be able to "confect God" in the form of the mass, to redirect the people to seek forgiveness of sins through the priests of the Catholic church - to change times and laws etc. All of that is passed.

    The deadly wound when the Pope was taken prisoner on 1798 and died in exile was a huge change in the way things were going for the "Holy Roman Empire" of the dark ages. It was a clear end to the dark ages that had started with the age of reason.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, May 5, 2013
  7. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I confused the issue because I thought that Romans 11:25 actually said “times of the Gentiles” and that some expositors explained the Luke 21:24 usage with this reference. We are living in the era when mostly Gentiles are being gathered into the gospel fold, while most of the Jews are blinded as foreseen in Isaiah 6:9-10. But I was going from memory and I apologise. This is what happens when I try to answer a post quickly without sufficient thought and research. Yes the Revelation 11:1-5 is another interesting time period.

    Due to lack of time I thought I would reference an old thread that I started over two years ago on this subject titled “Daniel 8v13-14 and Luke 21v24” and I was surprised to find that you were one of the main participants. In that thread I stated that I was willing to accept BC 457 as one of a number of starting points. I will not repeat what I posted on that occasion. Also in that thread I developed this subject in greater detail, and I do not think my view has altered much since then. At that time you rejected the multiple starts that I suggested for the 70 year Babylonian captivity. I have a copy of Page 3 Posts #21-24 but I do not know if you or the other member responded at a later time to these last four posts. You most probably gave up on me because of my stubbornness and refusal to accept the standard SDA line.

    I do not think the following was discussed in the other thread. I consider Daniel 8:19,24-25 as still future because I equate Daniel 8:25 with the latter day king of the north in Daniel 11:40-45. Daniel 11 is a continuation of the explanation of Daniel 8 as requested by Daniel.
    Daniel 8:19 (KJV): And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
    Daniel 8:24-25 (KJV): 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
    Daniel 11:40-45 (KJV): 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
    In my reckoning this could require a third starting date for the 2300 years, and this will terminate at the return of Jesus.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #7 TrevorL, May 7, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hello Trevor -

    I do admit to going "wayy back" on this board. (though more absent than not that last few years) I think GE has a discussion thread with me going back to 2005.


    The fact that you consider 457 BC one of the valid start points for the 2300 years - and given that it does also fit with the 70 week - 490 year timeline pointing to the coming of the Messiah in Dan 9 - what differences would there still be in our views?



    Some have considered that this text predicts a religious power that is different from a civil power and that it predicts such a power would persecute the saints. Since the 2300 year timeline extends well beyond the fall of the Roman empire - no matter when you start it, and since that period must include the dark ages, and since the offending power must arise out of some division going back to the split of the Greek Empire - and since such a power must be distinctly religious in nature and dominate the world that Daniel knew of for that period of time - it is hard to find too many other candidates.

    As for the 1800's being the "time of the end' - surely Baptists have been preaching about the rapture since the mid to late 1800's declare that it could be "any day" - have they not?
    I have to admit that my detail in Daniel 11:40-45 is not very well defined. But I will say this - in Dan 8 we know that the 2300 years extends down to the period called the "time of the end" but it does not necessarily encompass all of it - it merely reaches the start of that period.

    At least that is one possible view of Dan 8.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, May 7, 2013
  9. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I appreciate your response. You appear to be busy with many threads at the moment so I will be brief. Going back to 1843-1844 there appears to have been two groups of people looking seriously at William Miller’s estimation. One group looking heavenwards and another group who believed in the kingdom of God upon the earth. These two groups are mentioned on page 478 of the book SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine. The SDAs are now identified with some aspects of what the first group believed, while I would identify with some aspects of the second group.

    I am not absolutely sure on all the detail but I believe that the little horn in Daniel 7 is more religious, while that of Daniel 8 is more military.

    I connect the end of Daniel 8 with Daniel 11:40-45 and here it is definitely military. Instead of needing another starting point to fit the termination of Daniel 11-12, I am happy to accept the idea that 1843-44 is the start of the time of the end. In response to the prayers for the true restoration of natural Israel and the Kingdom, God gradually commenced the process of preparing the Holy Land for the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth. That is from that date the Holy started to be cleansed.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #9 TrevorL, May 8, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Matt 23 - at the end of the chapter - Christ pronounces the curse of Solomon from 1Kings dedication of the temple - "behold your house is left unto you desolate".

    In 1Thess 2 Paul states that the cup of their iniquity is full.

    And in 70 AD they were wiped out.

    Thus the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 - starting with 457 BC - ends in 34 AD and within a generation of that point - the city is destroyed and the Jews scattered. So even though the Jews were the large part of the Christian church in the starting days of the church - still the Jewish "nation" model was ending as God's plan and the persecuted church model was the one that would go all the way to the 2nd coming.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, May 8, 2013
  11. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    Agreed
    I agree. I suppose you are alluding to 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.
    As a nation, yes, but it is quite evident that many were scattered, and 1900 years later some of their descendants have returned to their land in fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
    Yes, I agree. But Bible prophecy speaks of the conversion of the Jews at the return of Jesus and the conversion and subjection of the nations also. Then Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-7, Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #11 TrevorL, May 8, 2013
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Daniel 9's 490 years for the Jewish nation ended about 3 years after the death of Christ.

    The fact that the nation of Israel forms in total opposition to Christ in the 1940's is not any prediction from the Bible and the Jewish state considers itself to be in rejection of Christ.

    And there is no text that I know of - that says that the Jews are to be restored to God or as a nation prior to -- or at the 2nd coming.

    The texts of the prophets written before or during Babylonian captivity - predicting the restoration after Babylonian captivity can't be used for that.

    I agree that prior to rejecting their Messiah God was always predicting that the Messiah would come and that they would have a glorious future should they accept Him - but this was a prediction regarding the first coming of Christ and their destiny to accept rather than reject their own Messiah.

    Now as Paul says in Romans 9 those promises are given to the church "it is the sons of the promise - not the sons of the flesh".

    And because they melted down -- we are left with the persecuted church model until Jesus comes as we see in Rev 12, 13 and 14.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, May 12, 2013
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