1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Actuality vs Potentiality?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jul 3, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    I have been thinking about this in view of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Is there a "potentiality" or an "actuality" to it? Is there an actualality(sp?) of being saved, or merely a chance?
     
  2. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is this a question about particular redemption, or something else?
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    I am not exactly sure. I am asking does the cross actually save people, or is there a chance one can be saved? Is the cross a "hope to be saved" or is it a surety?
     
  4. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it really all depends on one's stance on Election, and perhaps on foreknowledge.

    1. If God Elected certain people to be saved, it can easily be stated that The cross Secured the salvation of those elect.

    2. If there is some other understanding of election, then the cross supplied the means of salvation, but does not become effective until the gift of salvation is received by faith...though this is also the position of some 4-point Calvinists. That though God elected people to salvation, they are not ACTUALLY saved until they receive the gift by exercising their God-given faith.

    3. Another view, compatible with free-will and perfect divine foreknowledge, is that God KNEW all who would believe in him, and so at the moment of Christ's death, in actuality "saved" all of them based on the faith that he knew they would have in the future.
     
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    Looking at it as one coming from the non-cal camp, it causes me grief. Did God send Jesus to die for all, knowing all wouldn't be saved? Or did He send Jesus to die for His elect?

    Again, is it an actual or possible atonement? Hmmm..

    Yuck. If this rings true, man elected himself because God chose based on his/her willingness to be saved. Kinda akin to a "merit system", imo.
     
  6. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,521
    Likes Received:
    43
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pretty good synopses. The only difference I would have is in #3 that because God has perfect foreknowledge, salvation was as Paul put it, before the foundation of the world.

    Not trying to get into an argument about it, but I do appreciate your the neutrality of your options.
     
  7. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your last statement sounds like something a calvinist would say. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  8. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, I can be wishy-washy with the best of them!
     
  9. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,521
    Likes Received:
    43
    Faith:
    Baptist
    lol, never thought of you as wishy washy.

    I think part of the problem I have with most of the options is that I could find Scripture that backs them all up and find Scriptures that refute them all.

    I'm all for doctrinal purity, but I am not sure we will understand all this until we get to heaven. Until then, I'm going to let God be God, keep preaching the Word and try to help those who have never heard the Gospel hear it.
     
  10. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    If there is a chance or hope that someone can be saved then salvation becomes dependent on the individual, not God. Forget the foreknowledge crowd that is going to say that man's choices were foreseen by God in eternity past. Of course they were, but that is not how God elects (Eph. 1 & Rom. 9). Salvation is intentional in that God decreed it for the individual in eternity and brings it to pass in time.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,495
    Likes Received:
    2,880
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think 'Positional vs. Practical' may be the better articulation.
     
  12. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    1
    And yet the OP still has not gotten a direct answer to the questions and the follow up questions.

    Need to make some popcorn cuz this is gonna get interesting :)
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,375
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Forget the foreknowledge crowd ...oh yea & really? So you want to dismiss a work of the Almighty soooo casually....REALLY?
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,375
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Explain in more detail please.
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Particular Redemption is a fact and necessity because of the unchangeable and eternal intercession of the eternal high priest.

    22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

    23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

    24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

    25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



    It was actual not potential...it was finished:thumbsup:


    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
     
  16. Herald

    Herald New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    27
    I did not say forget foreknowledge. I said forget the foreknowledge crowd. There is a large contingent of those on the free will side who believe that God looked down the corridor of time and saw those who would choose Him, so He elected them. That is the crowd I am referring to, not foreknowledge itself. The foreknowledge view of election is a contrived doctrine that fails the test of Scripture.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,375
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's fine...but you need to make yourself far more explisit than a quick blanket statement otherwise you could misrepresent something important.
     
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist

    A man after my own heart!!!!

    This is an excellent post.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Perhaps those of the Cal camp find the truth of grace in the full righteousness and justice of God expressed in love and mercy is the most accurate view faithful to Scripture.

    Perhaps those of the non-cal camp find that the truth of grace is in the love and mercy compelling modification to of the full righteousness and justice of God is the most accurate view faithful to Scripture.

    It is the Word of God that saves - in season and out of season it must be preached.

    Even when proclaimed by an unregenerate heathen preacher, the Scriptures can and do save.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist



    Icon, You did good!

    You provided the Scriptures that accurately answered the question.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Those same Scriptures also comment on another point in which the OP did not mention directly, but is (by the two considerations) needing to be addressed.

    THIS part is important that address:
    12 But this man (Christ), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (note not "progressively" but "positionally" - the believer is already sanctified) (note 2: This sanctification is not just to gentile, but look below to the Israeli)


    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin
    ."

    This part of the passage is a BIG problem for the "non-cal" folks who do not consider such items as "irresistible grace" as Scriptural.

    For as much as they would "determine" such a view is untrue, here it is clearly stated as decreed by God that it WILL happen, and the folks have NO CHOICE but to respond.

    GOD does the work, man only responds.

    How can ANY premillennial person's view not embrace irresistible grace based upon this passage alone?

    The whole premillennial thinking must support that God WILL "put a hook" into the heart and mind of the Israeli folks - a hook that cannot be resisted, and will present them understanding and acceptance of the Messiah at His coming.

    Now, I know that Icon is not Pre-mill.

    But, that isn't the issue.

    Icon would read this whole passage as addressed to believers - which it is!!!!

    The gentile AND the Israeli believers.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God decreed that thru the death of jesus, ALL sin debts were paid in full, so was actual salvationds provided for all whom would be receiving Jesus as their Lord and saviour!

    In truth, ONLY those whose sins were atoned for will be saved!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...