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Featured Is Semi-Pelegainism heresy?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Yes, most of what we know comes from Augustine.

    There is a reconstructed transcripts of one of his hearings. An apparently friendly synod never got to the core of his own beliefs and accepted his denials of heresy, which consisted of anathemizing what other people had said.

    However, it seems safe to assume that he denied original sin, a position that his followers explicated into what became known as Pelagianism, whether or not he would have agreed with all the points it entailed.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I read that in a previous post, my question concerned what the inspired writers said about "another gospel." They used phrases like "different gospel" or strange gospel or teach strange doctrine.

    If you want to study the topic, you might start with Galatians 1:6-11. Other verses of interest might be 1 Timothy 1:3 and 6:3.

    For example, another Jesus might be one who did not rise from the dead, or was not God in the flesh.

    Forum rules preclude publicly posting the results of our efforts to test the spirits to see if they are from God, but people sent from God will exude kindness and truth.
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    With all due respect you are uninformed on the Protestant and Reformed view of the early church councils. The first ecumenical councils were catholic in the sense that they included all known contemporary Christian views of the time. Eventually the councils shifted in focus from catholic to Roman Catholic. That is a distinction that you failed to make.

    Councils, and the creeds and pronouncements that they generated, are not infallible truth, but they do provide a valuable historical account of contemporary issues like Arianism and Pelagianism. The Reformers had a duty to determine whether the early church councils were right in their conclusions based on their own study. In other words, just because a council says something does not make it so.

    As to whether the councils were correct on Pelagianism, the Reformers unequivocally said "yes". I concur. Pelagianism is a pure synergistic view. Man cooperates with God in salvation. Full blown Pelagianism is heresy. Thankfully most mainline Baptists are not Pelagians. They are semi-Pelagians. I do not question their salvation based simply on their misunderstanding. They are confused, but I am happy to call them "brethren".
     
  4. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    Not all of his writings were destroyed....

    His entire commentary on Romans survives:
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0198269803/?tag=baptis04-20

    His "Letter to Demetrias" survives: (due to it's being falsely attributed to Jerome I've heard)

    Some smaller snippets of some of his treatises on the will etc. also survive.
     
    #44 Inspector Javert, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2014
  5. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    You are correct, I am not a historian and particularly not a church historian. I would welcome some explanation of your point concerning catholic vs. Catholic representation at these councils. For the council of Cathage (419), what was it representation? Was it Catholic or simply catholic (universal)?
     
  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Neither the Second Council of Orange nor this Council of Carthage were ecumenical; the former being French and the latter African. However, the strictures against Pelagianism were codified by the Council of Ephesus (431), which was an ecumenical council.
     
  7. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    Well, 47 posts later and we still don't have an accurate definition of semi-Pelagianism by the OP or thereafter.
     
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Try this one from Arminian theologian Roger E. Olson (who argues that most of American Christianity is either Calvinist or semi-Pelagian):

     
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    RSR, how does this "square" with the following:

    Pursuant to the papal command, there was held on 1 May, 418, in the presence of 200 bishops, the famous Council of Carthage, which again branded Pelagianism as a heresy in eight (or nine) canons (Denzinger, "Enchir.", 10th ed., 1908, 101-8). Owing to their importance they may be summarized:

    Death did not come to Adam from a physical necessity, but through sin.
    New-born children must be baptized on account of original sin.
    Justifying grace not only avails for the forgiveness of past sins, but also gives assistance for the avoidance of future sins.
    The grace of Christ not only discloses the knowledge of God's commandments, but also imparts strength to will and execute them.
    Without God's grace it is not merely more difficult, but absolutely impossible to perform good works.
    Not out of humility, but in truth must we confess ourselves to be sinners.
    The saints refer the petition of the Our Father, "Forgive us our trespasses", not only to others, but also to themselves.
    The saints pronounce the same supplication not from mere humility, but from truthfulness.
    Some codices containing a ninth canon (Denzinger, loc. cit., note 3): Children dying without baptism do not go to a "middle place" (medius locus), since the non reception of baptism excludes both from the "kingdom of heaven" and from "eternal life".

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
     
  10. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    This may be due to the fact that it is very difficult to precisely "pin down" what Pelagius actually believed and held to. Seems as though much of his documents did not survive antiquity. Was there a concerted effort by his opponents, such as Augustine, to rid the world of his documents?
     
  11. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Not sure what the question is. Although the canons were later adopted by an ecumenical council, Carthage itself was an African synod, including none of the other geographical "churches."
     
    #51 rsr, Oct 25, 2014
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Just as the doctrines encapsulated with the acronym "TULIP" were never penned by John Calvin, the doctrine of Semi-Pelegainism, was never penned by Pelegus. So all this effort to address the lost views is off target. The question is, what do the Calvinists mean when they hurl this smear at all those who believe God desires fallen men to turn to Him and trust in Christ. At its core, any rejection of the mistaken doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability," Calvinist say is close (semi) to heresy.

    There is no need to debate how many Pelegus views can dance on the head of a pen.
     
    #52 Van, Oct 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Despite some controversy on particular redemption --which I still believe Calvin held to --he would have agreed with the Canons of Dort.
    Of course --he was into full-blown Pelagianism --not a halfway house.
    What smear? Calvinists believe that God commands all people everywhere need to repent and believe the gospel.
    Calvinists are not the only ones who believe in Spiritual inability and the pervasive corruption of the heart. You have not been paying attention.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I will refrain from "channeling" the departed and claim I know what he thought.

    I will agree, Pelegus did not invent "semi-Pelegainism.

    Calvinism says God commands us to do what He prevents us from doing. Go figure.

    I agree, scripture teaches limited spiritual ability, fallen men can understand and respond to the milk of the gospel, but are unable to understand spiritual meat, which requires being enabled by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No need for channeling. You simply need to read his books to know what he thought.
    How reasonable.
    To figure means to understand and come to reasonable conclusions on a matter. You have not.

    The Lord has given commands yet the human heart is wicked. God did not cause them to be wicked. It was their 'choice.'
    You are not agreeing with me. I did not say that people have 'limited' spiritual ability. I said that people have spiritual inability and pervasive corruption of the heart. You do not pay attention.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would agree with him on that definition of a heretic, as they would hold to the death of Jesus for their sins and his resurrection as ONLY hope to get saved, but they would tend to see it still as in God sent jesus to die for me, gives me enough grace to respond, and waits to see if I will chose jesus or reject Him still...

    They do see us as being fallen and not able to come to God apart from him allowing that by His prevelient Grace, but all can freely choose Jesus if they so desired...
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Anyone who pays any attention to what Mr. Rippon says about John Calvin's thoughts on "semi-Pelegainism" is naive. No quote will be forthcoming.

    According to Calvinism, God imposed "total spiritual inability" upon all fallen men, making them unable to not sin or seek God or trust in Christ.
    Calvinism blames men for doing the only thing God has allowed them to do. It is a absurd irrational and mistaken view.

    Total Spiritual Inability is refuted by Matthew 23:13 where fallen men are seeking God, actually in the process of entering heaven, when they are blocked by false teachers.

    Just as the doctrines encapsulated with the acronym "TULIP" were never penned by John Calvin, the doctrine of Semi-Pelegainism, was never penned by Pelagius. The phrase was coined in the 16th century. So all this effort to address the lost views is off target. The question is, what do the Calvinists mean when they hurl this smear at all those who believe God desires fallen men to turn to Him and trust in Christ. At its core, any rejection of the mistaken doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability," Calvinist say is close (semi) to heresy.
     
    #57 Van, Oct 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2014
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have said absolutely nothing about John Calvin's thoughts on semi-Pelagianism. The doctrine wasn't even called that until 13 years after his death. You must have been daydreaming again. ;-)
    Before you go about trying to destroy Calvinism it would be wise to actually read what Calvinists have said. There is no Calvinist who thinks that God has imposed spiritual inability on the human race. Where do you come up with such absurdities? People have natural spiritual inability. Sin has radically corrupted them.
    But his doctrines were in conformity with the canons of Dort.
    Well duh.
    What smear? Calvinists believe that God commands all people everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. You apparently were not "listening" the first time I said this a few posts ago.
    Calvinists are not the only ones who believe in spiritual inability and the pervasive corruption of the heart due to sin. You continue to be inattentive to things that have been clearly stated over and over.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Mr. Rippon continues to run away from Calvinism, hurling falsehoods to cover his retreat.

    Does God predestine whatsoever comes to pass? Yes according to Calvinism. Thus fallen man's inability to not sin, seek God and trust in Christ was predestined by God. So simple a cave man could understand it.

    Mr. Rippon says "There is no Calvinist who thinks that God has imposed spiritual inability on the human race."

    However, if you search on this question, numerous cites pop. Here is an excerpt from one of them:
     
    #59 Van, Oct 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2014
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    How have I been running away from Calvinism? What falsehoods have I said?
    Yes, indeed. And you have produced nothing that contradicts that from Calvinists.

    You apparently have a bee under your bonnet.
     
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