Featured Do you have questions about evangelism?The Way of the Master Moment Mail call Q&A

Amen!!!!! raying:

 

Here they are again, "Evangelist." I have faithfully provided references for my conclusions, but have yet received a foundation for your beliefs (other than to read Metzger's book). Let's engage the topic and find out who is in error - we both very well may have error in our views - so let's keep it to Scripture as this is the only way you will correct my "misunderstanding."

One of us is wrong - so let’s go to Scripture (not other books).

1. Show me where Gentiles are evangelized by being convicted under the Law.
2. Show me where Gentiles are actually stated as being obligated to follow Torah or the Ten Commandments.
3. Show me where Gentiles are said to have sinned because they disobeyed one of the Ten Commandments as stated in Torah.
4. Show me where it is said that Gentiles go to Hell for transgressing the Ten Commandments
5. Show me where the Law “as a Schoolmaster” applies to a Gentile audience.
6. Show me how New Testament era Gentiles had a biblical foundation.
7. Show me where God’s moral law originates with the Ten Commandments.

 

I believe that we are not under the Law (Torah) today because Scripture says that we are not under the Law (Torah). That does not mean it's not applicable - only it is not applicable in the sense you want it to be. I have provided Scripture stating such - I guess you'll have to decide if you want to believe man or God. So let's start with the verse you cite - only the whole passage.

Romans 2:14-16 (NASB)
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

These Gentiles do not have the Law. They do instinctively the things of the Law. Why? It is written on their hearts. This is not obedience to the Law (Torah) but instead it is obedience to the law of God. Their fulfillment of the Law (or lack thereof) is not based on the Law (Torah) but on the law of God written on their hearts. The 10 Commandments (a part of Torah) are but expressions of this law. Abraham was not sinless…he sinned but he did not break one of the Ten Commandments because Torah was centuries away. The 10 Commandments are an expression of God's moral righteousness - but they are not that righteousness. When you take a biblical perspective then WOTM cannot hold water.

As for your conclusions about my belief…well, I have to say again that you read without understanding. Don’t wonder about what I believe - just ask me. If one is carnal and a Christian at the same time, then yes, they will be in heaven because we are saved by faith in Christ and not by our works. If you are asking if one can be carnal and a Christian....then that's a different topic all together. I believe that Scripture is correct and WOTM faulty in theology (but not necessarily in practice). Since you can offer no rebuttal founded in Scripture, may I take it that you also see the theological error in WOTM?

 

That may very well be true, Revmitchell. Much of what I have been interacting with has been Evan’s version of WOTM. Ray Comfort did, however, make the statement that people are sent to Hell for breaking the 10 Commandments and not for rejecting Christ. I believe that this is incorrect. I have learned that the world is condemned for rejecting Christ, and I believe that our sins are manifestations of a sinful nature. We should test the doctrines behind our programs, and in the case of WOTM I find it flawed in that it is bad theology. Otherwise, I applaud their effort and even their methods (in practice, not in reasoning). That said, the Law reveals God's nature...no arguments from me here.

 

What Did Jesus Do: A Call to Return to the Biblical Gospel, page 67

But let's stick to Scripture please.

 

I know that John 3 is a discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, and perhaps you may think I take it too literally. But I do take it literally. He who does not believe in Jesus has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. This tells me that it is a sin problem…you are correct. It is our sinfulness, our rebellion against God (which is, I believe, our rejection of Christ). From this sinfulness comes individual sins. Perhaps I overstated my position in dealing with the topic. I don’t think so, but I am limited to my own perspective. Until our sin problem is resolved we will stay separated from God and die and go to Hell. But individual sins are only manifestations of that sin problem (and you are right to correct me if it appeared I was making sin no issue at all….that was not my intent). But the problem is much deeper than breaking a commandment. It goes to the core of our fallen nature, not merely our actions and thoughts. I do not disagree that using the Ten Commandments can be a very effective way of communicating this. I do disagree with using the Ten Commandments as if we were “under the Law (Torah)” rather than under God’s law (which is, granted, in the Ten Commandments). It’s not WOTM practice but the awful and erroneous theology behind it. Maybe it’s only the way Evan presents it. Maybe not.

 

What????? No! If you think that I misunderstood Comfort and took him out of context then it is your responsibility to clarify the issue. I like Comfort - he's a great evangelist but a poor theologian. Here's a hint - your quote begins with "at face value." Read a bit further. Now this stops here (on this thread). I told you that I would only accept Scripture as evidence. You keep going back to these books (I know I offered Comfort as an example and I'm sorry for it....I take responsibility for distracting you with a book reference). But let's get back on track.

I offered you Scripture that stated we are not under the Law. You offered no rebuttal in the form of Scripture. Do you have any Scripture that supports your position? Are you going to accept the words of man or the Word of God?

 

Thank you. I have seen Comfort evangelize and preach, and I like his method (although it would not be mine). He engages his audience, and expresses genuine concern. That's about all the exposure I've had of WOTM.

 

I am sorry that my comment cause you to break your book spending freeze, but I'm glad you found it for a penny (plus shipping). We're being cordial (which I appreciate), but I think you may be avoiding answering my questions.

But what of the Scripture I quoted? Do you think that Paul is right or do you believe that we are all under the Law (Torah) today?

(I will say again, I believe Torah and the Ten Commandments to be expressions of God's nature and moral law....I just disagree that we are "under the Law", not that we don't use the 10 Commandments).

Here's that list again:

 

You know what.....never mind. You would have never read the Scripture's I posted anyway (they are not as important to you as your method and your books). If you did you'd never understand - you'd just pick up a book and follow what ever came your way. Just forget it and preach whatever your heart desires or your books tell you to preach. Good luck...may the force be with you....live long and prosper....see a therapist....whatever floats your boat.